SYPM 004: Conflicting cultures! with Dovilė Šafranauskė

Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo podcast where I critically examine strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. In this series of episodes called Sharing Your Parenting Mojo, we turn the tables and hear from listeners. What have they learned from the show that's helped their parenting? Where are they still struggling? And what tools can we find in the research that will help?

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Hello, and welcome to another sharing Your Parenting Mojo segment of the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. Today I am here with listener Dovilė from Lithuania. Hi, Dovilė. Can you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about you and your family?

Hello, Jen. Very nice to be here. And yes, our family is off for myself, my husband Favelas and my twin girls who have just turned 25 months, Sophia and Thea.

Okay. And how do you like to spend your time? Do you live in a city? Are you in the country? Or what kind of environment are you in?

We live in a city suburb. And actually, we are not a very active family. So we spend a lot of time in our backyard, especially with the twins. It's not that easy to get them out the door, first of all, and then to get them you know not to run away to different directions, when we are somewhere out and about. So when they are locked in the backyard, that's the most, I'd say, that the most easy day. Although, we don't go for walks and yeah, to the city, and etc.

Nice. And how long have you been listening to the show?

Well, it has probably been since maybe three or four months. And I'm really listening very intensively because I want to catch up with the recent episodes. And so I really have to listen quite some episodes every few days or so to catch up because you've done quite many of them.

I know yeah, yeah, you sound more committed than my husband at this point. I’m not sure he’s listened to all of them. Yeah, he likes to say he goes one better and lives with the hosts so he doesn't have to listen.

Yeah, but he’s kind of right.

So have you had a favorite episode from the ones you've heard so far, or one that you've really learned a lot from?

Well, there have been several. Actually your episodes with Alfie Kohn were really like eye openers for me.

Isn’t he amazing?

Absolutely. I think that his book Unconditional Parenting has shifted my– totally, I mean, I knew some things about, I mean, the right parenting and positive discipline. But when I read Unconditional Parenting that has totally changed the way I look at my kids and the parenting thing. He's amazing. Absolutely.

Yeah, same experience for me, it was absolutely mind blowing for me to see how a child experiences, my love is more important than what kind of what I'm putting out in the world. And that they need to experience that unconditionally. And that so many of the ways we traditionally parents do kind of make our love conditional on them doing the things we want them to do, right?

Yeah, his approach is absolutely amazing. And I think that it should be like one of the first books to read on parenting, in my opinion.

Yep I agree, yeah. Did you have any other favorite episodes?

Well, I have discovered the episode about sleep. That was also very interesting for me, because I do work now as a sleep consultant. And so for me, your scientific approach, I mean, when you come from the research point of view, was very, very interesting because I totally agree with you. There is no one right sleep plan for everybody. And that there are so many different things that depend on certain cultures, certain family, and when we try to adopt things that are working in other cultures, or maybe working in another country that is not totally necessary that it will work for us as well. So I find it really to be very, very, very interesting.

Yeah, and the issue of culture sort of brings us to I think the main topic we're here to discuss today, right? Do you want to tell us about something you're struggling with related to parenting?

Well, basically, that's the approach. When I started to parent in a right way, I kind of had to justify myself in front of other people that this way of parenting is the right way, is the way that I believe in, and my husband believes in. So we totally had, well, let's say a small conflict with my parents and my in-laws, about our way of parenting, because they believe that well, that we have to be more strict, we have to be more demanding maybe. And also, they do these usual things that are done with kids, like entertain them all the time, and play for them, not with them. And encourage them to do certain things and like, well clap your hands, like 100 times a day. I know, it's cute! Absolutely. I mean, I love it when they clap their hands and do other funny things, but I mean, when they do it with their own intention, not when asked all the time. Yeah, and also outside the house, when we go to see our relatives and friends, we always get these strange questions about our kids and our way of parenting. So it's a little trigger for me that I feel like I have to justify myself so often.

Yeah, so it seems as though sort of the Alfie Kohn Unconditional Parenting Model is pretty different from the way that parenting is typically practiced in Lithuania.

Yes, that's very, very different.

Okay. Absolutely. And is there one topic, maybe that just kind of drives you nuts that we could kind of use to base this conversation around?

Well, probably one thing that my girls, they have never been like, well, we never tried to touch them without telling them that we will lift them etc. And they are quite slow to warm up with people. Even sometimes with the grandparents, they take a minute or so to accommodate that they are in the house. But if they meet some relatives that they don't see so often, so they are really slow to warm up. And they don't like to be touched and picked up by other people that they don't know well. And that is something that people get really triggered by and I get triggered because I somehow feel like I need to push them or I mean, do something about it. And that urge to do something about it really is making me feel very, very uncomfortable. And I don't know where that comes from, maybe from the feeling that I need to prove that my parenting is okay, and that the nature of the kids is okay and we accepted. I mean, not everybody has to be really like extrovert, easygoing, and so on. So that's probably where things really trigger me. And, yeah, that's one of the things probably,

Yeah, no, that's a great example to use as a lot of scope for exploration in there. And so this is reminding me of a conversation that I had recently with a member in the Finding Your Parenting Mojo membership group, and she was talking about, you know, in her culture, she's living in Bahrain, right now, the child has to go up and shake hands and kiss cheeks with relatives when they arrive. And she's trying to reconcile, you know, how does that fit with a respectful parenting approach? And it seems as though there's sort of a similar dynamic going on with you, where you're reading things about body autonomy and about respecting people's right to decide what happens to their body, and trying to fit that into a culture where that may not necessarily be how things are done on a daily basis when you interact with children. Is that right?

Yes, that's exactly what is happening. And, I mean, we are quite a Nordic country so we're still not that bad, probably like in, I know, southern countries where people really like people who like touching each other a lot. But still, I don't know why children are expected always to be those easy going people, and they are expected that they would love everybody on this arm that they see maybe once in a half year. But somehow the adults they expect all children that they would always smile and that they would always be in a good mood. And these are the good kids, you know?

Yeah, and yet, we're not expected to smile and to– I mean maybe because it's socially accepted when you're older, you might hug and kiss somebody you've only seen every six months, but maybe when you're younger, you might not even remember them from six months ago. You wouldn't hug and kiss somebody you don't even remember as an adult, right?

Dovilė Šafranauskė 9:57

Yeah, that's exactly yeah.

Jen Lumanlan 9:59

Yeah, it seems there's a definite double standard there in terms of how children and adults interact. And so I'm wondering, do you have any memories of this from when you were young about, you know, maybe your parents said to you, “Oh, go and kiss grandma and grandpa or aunt?” Or was there anything like that that you remember that sticks out in your mind?

Oh, that's an interesting question. Well, I think I do remember that I was very uncomfortable with kissing older people, because they had this some special smells or something. And I was very, very uncomfortable with that. And I was kind of afraid of it. So as a child, I was always trying to escape the moments of saying hello and saying goodbye, so that I wouldn't need to kiss anybody.

Yeah, that could be why you're feeling so conflicted about it in the moment. It could be one of the reasons not, you know, notwithstanding the reading that you've done on this, but maybe when your parents are saying, you know, “Come here and give me a kiss.” And you're sort of hearing that and thinking how uncomfortable you were, and maybe reliving them a little bit about how uncomfortable you were when that happened, and not wanting to put your children in that same position.

Yeah, probably, that might be the reason. And also, when I was small, I was kind of this easy kid, I wanted to perform things in front of others, so I was saying the poems and etc, etc. And my mom is talking about it so much that I sometimes feel triggered that she's expecting the same from my kids, but they are completely different personalities. I mean, just the other day, she was saying that when you were one year and a half, you told your first poem to Santa Claus, or whatever. And they are now more than two, and they don't say poems and they don't entertain.

You haven’t said a poem to Santa Claus yet?

No, not yet. Can you imagine? And so when my mom made this comment, I was really kind of really also triggered, because I thought, but you can't compare. You know, they are different people. You can't put everybody to the same standard or something.

Yeah, yeah. So do you rely on your parents or your in-laws for childcare? Or are these social visits that you're experiencing?

No, they come to help with the childcare as well. Because with the twins, and then being quite active physically, it's a lot of things to take care about. So they come to help as well.

Yeah. Okay. So that's sort of a different situation, when they're interacting very regularly with the children versus when it's sort of a, you know, maybe once a week for a couple of hours kind of thing, and you're always around. So that's something to keep in mind.

Exactly. It's very regular. And that's why probably, I really want them to adopt a bit of our parenting style, not really only letting to have them unique relations, but also a little bit closer to our parenting style.

Okay, and so tell us about what you've tried so far, about asking them to maybe adopt some of your style?

Well, I have started to really with a wrong foot, I believe. Because when mmy twins were maybe seven or eight months old and that was already some time when I found the right parenting approach. And myself and my husband were just, you know, in love with this parenting approach and we thought it just resonated so much with us. We were both on the same page and we wanted our grandparents to be on the same page. And I have made writing of maybe, I don't know, a 10 pages summary of what is this parenting about and what we want our grandparents, how we want them to behave.

And how did that go over?

Well, it was not accepted with great interest, I must say.

Really?

Yeah. When I look back, now, I wouldn't recommend anybody to do it, honestly. Because it was probably too much of information at one go. And this information was so different from the way they were growing us. And I think that at a certain point, they may be thought it's a little insulting because it was kind of saying that the way they were parenting us was kind of wrong, and now we know what it's right. So, yeah, looking back, that was a very good lesson for me. And I hope If there are any parents who plan to do it, or listening to the show, that they would think about it twice.

Aha. Yes, I would definitely encourage parents to think about that twice before writing a 10- page summary. But I guess they don't have to write it, they could maybe borrow yours.

Yeah, exactly. It’s in Lithuanian because the issue was that because all the information was in English, and our grandparents, they don't read English. So I translated, I have prepared those 10 pages. And you know, it was quite a bit of work. I mean, it was my sleeping time that was stolen to prepare for that.

So you felt really emotionally invested in this then?

Absolutely, absolutely. I because I wanted so much. I mean, myself and my husband, we believe in this philosophy so much. And we wanted to share it. I mean, we wanted to show how good it can be and how different it is from what we know about parenting. But of course, I mean, that was the wrong goal.

Yeah, okay. So let's figure out how things have shifted since then. Have you had any kind of conversation since the manifesto was presented? And, was it not accepted? Have they come around a little bit to what you're working on? Or where are you right now in this?

Yes, they actually have adopted quite a few things from that. And especially I see it when we go outside to the playgrounds, and when I see how grandparents are interacting with the kids, I see there is a big difference. I mean, when we are at home, I still have maybe not everything is so perfect. But when we go outside, I really see they have adopted quite a lot, especially on praising the kids, for doing small things. They are more praising now the process. They have really also shifted the way they interact. They talk in authentic voices, like with, you know, keep the conversation more than doing things for our kids. They let them do it themselves. And what is most important in my opinion, they let the emotions be more and more. They accept the emotions instead of distracting and maybe offering something, you know, you look through the window, there is a tiger back there, or whatever. So they accept more and more that there is less emotion, maybe you're angry, and just come and sit here and and more more are really being in the moment with them.

Yeah, but that actually sounds like amazing progress. I mean, from an outsider's perspective, these are not parents who are saying, “We raised you the right way. And this is the way to parent and there's no way we're taking on your ideas,” right?

Yeah, and I think that this came really quite slowly to modeling. That's probably the tool to be used is really the modeling. And also we had several conversations about why this is important to us. But this conversation were more not in the form of one manifesto, but they were more of nice evening conversations. What is behind it? About the different world that our kids are going to be in? I mean, and how this world will be different from the world we were growing in? And how they need certain qualities and certain, you know, accepting themselves and why is that important? Where that is leading? So these were the things that really made the difference in really calm conversations. And of course, modeling.

Yes, yeah, yeah, it definitely sounds like you're already on the right track. And so specifically, just kind of taking this topic that you do find so triggering of your parents and your in-laws, touching children or picking them up without their consent. Have you talked to them specifically about that already?

Well, we spoke about it. But I mean, maybe from my last sentence, things sound really perfect. But there are still moments when things happen. And then I get really triggered and my husband gets triggered also. And sometimes we really don't know how to react. And well, not that much already with the grandparents but maybe with other people with relatives visiting or maybe guests, when they tried to, for example, to pick up the girls without telling even from the back, and then they start screaming and then everybody gets, you know, also very uncomfortable. And I don't really know how to react in those situations because adults, they tend to take it personally. They tend to take like, “She doesn't like me,” or whatever. I don't know what's, what's happening. And then I kind of have feel the need, the urge, and myself to kind of explain that, you know, yeah, it's okay, but you know, don't touch her anymore without telling and, etc.

Yeah, yeah. So I think there's a few things that you can do and it seems as though conversations are working very well with your parents and your in-laws, and so I was definitely going to suggest that.And you're not at a time when it's just happened, maybe grandma said, “Oh, come on, give me a kiss.” It may be a little bit of a guilt trip, “If you don't give me a kiss I won't, I won't know that you love me,” or something like that. In that moment, you may feel very triggered and feel as though it needs to be addressed right then and there. But it's probably actually something that would be better addressed at another time. And since this is a very ingrained sort of social norm, it's something you know is gonna happen again and again. And so you can kind of have a conversation at another time, anticipate that it is going to happen, and just talk about why you're taking this different approach in the same way that you are with these other topics. And, you know, I think the evidence on this front is pretty persuasive when we're talking about raising children who can understand what it means to have body autonomy and to be able to say no, when somebody does something that they don't want them to do. And I don't know how much you've heard about the MeToo Movement, and whether that's completely permeated all of your news and many cultural aspects in the same way as it has in the US. But, you know, it seems as though a decent amount of these kinds of stories originate in people not being sure what is okay with them and what is not okay with them. And I'm, I don't have any specific evidence on this topic. But I'm wondering if it's partly because when they were children, you know, they were never given the opportunity to say, “No, that's not okay with me. That's my body and that's not okay with me.” And so as they get older, these lines continue to get fuzzier and fuzzier. You know, “We're in this relationship. What is this relationship about? Am I comfortable with this? I'm really not sure, because I don't know if I have the right to say no.” You know, if we want to raise children, and particularly girls who feel confident saying “NO” when something is done to them, they don't want to have done to them. That's not a switch that we flipped when they turn 18 and move out of our house, right? That's something they have to practice throughout their lives.

Yeah, that's true. And we have to accept this. This know from them,

Right.

I mean, so they would feel it's normal.

Yes.

Yeah, it's always very difficult to let this very moment happen when things do happen to let it go.

Yes.

And then to postpone it for a quiet time, when the emotions are calmer.

Yeah.

So yeah, that's something to work on, Probably. As as a rule, when things do happen, and then I comment, and then things escalate.

Yes. And so for this issue, particularly, because it is something that is probably happening on a regular basis, you may already have an incident in your mind when you're thinking, “Oh, I really wish grandma or grandpa hadn't done things like that.” And you can talk about that thing that's already happened. You don't have to wait for another incident to happen.

Yeah, that's true.

So it's not necessarily a watch and wait and walk on eggshells, because you know, something's coming. And you're waiting for that shoe to drop and, and then you're going to talk about it, you could start the conversation with, you know, “Remember when this thing happened, it made Sophia cry. And I was really uncomfortable with it for these reasons. And could we please figure out a way to express Hello, and a greeting that we're happy to see each other in a way that doesn't involve kissing, or whatever the routine is.” And maybe the children will be fine with giving a high five, or you know, they could be involved in coming up with ideas for ways that they greet family members that they see all the time.

Yes, that's true. And that's something to work on.

Yeah, and I think it's a different issue when it's people that you don't see very often because you can't necessarily expect Auntie that you see once or twice a year to be completely on board with your parenting philosophy. And so in that case, I think what I would do is just try and protect the children a little bit. And when you're coming into a family gathering, maybe you're holding them for right now, while they're still fairly small as you enter and you're sort of in that situation where everybody would normally be doing the rounds of hugging and kissing. And you could maybe say, “Oh, she's not ready to do that yet. When she's ready, she'll give you a high five,” or something like that, just so that you're physically kind of protecting her with your body. And maybe you could carry one of them and your husband could carry the other one, other twin. And so that way they're not kind of on their own trying to fend off. Great auntie, whatever, that you are there physically helping them. Is that something that you think could work in the way that you interact with your family?

Yes, that probably could work. We have never tried it but because normally it's a little you know, hectic moment when you come somewhere and somebody comes. But yeah, that sounds like an option. Really.

Yeah. And then as they get older, they're gonna be more able to advocate for themselves. And of course, as they get older, you're not gonna be able to carry them forever. But if you sort of set this habit of when you enter a big family setting, you're going to be carrying them for you know, maybe a few months, maybe a year. And so when your family members see you coming, they see, “Oh yeah, Sophie, Auntie, I don't want to be hugged. They will give a high five when they're ready.” And then as they get older and more verbal and they're ready to stand up for themselves, they might say, “No, Grandma, I don't want to hug, I'll give you a high five,” or you know, whoever it is they're talking to.

Yeah, but then I think I will feel like I need to say something about it, because grandma would probably be very upset about it.

Yeah, and I think that that's sort of a decision that you as parents kind of need to make is, you know, how much do we want to sort of adhere to this cultural norm? Is it hugging and kissing? What is the thing that you normally do when you greet somebody?

Well, it depends from how close the relatives are, but normally, yeah, normally, it's kissing.

Okay. So I mean, that's sort of a decision that you need to make is, “Am I going to require that my children are kissed?” And if the answer is yes, then you know, that's a very different conversation from, “No, I'm not going to require that they be kissed.” But they do need to acknowledge the other person in some kind of friendly way. And they could say hi, or they could offer a high five or something like that. And then it's kind of supporting your children in whatever it is that you've decided is the way that you want to handle this.

That sounds very insightful. That's probably where it comes from. Because when there is no firm in a decision, then we always get little, you know, I'd say uncertain.

Yes. You don't know how to handle it at the moment, right?

Yeah, to handle it. But when you said about this decision that really resonates within me, that if there is a certain decision that we can make together with my husband, then it's very easy to know your position.

Yes, exactly. And I know, you just joined the membership group, and we're going to talk a lot about this in the coming months. And we will get very clear on family values and goals and where we think we're heading. And specifically on sort of setting boundaries with our children, we focus very much on the parent makes the decision about what is acceptable. And once you are clear, in your own mind, why you have made this decision, and you know that this decision was made for a really valid reason, then you're able to hold that limit, and your children don't test you anymore, because they know that when they hear it in your voice, you are not allowed to do that. And you can explain why if you feel you need to, then they will realize this is not something that mom is negotiable on. Therefore, I'm not going to test it. And the same kind of goes with other family members too, you know, it's that really being clear in your own mind of what you feel is acceptable. And that's only a decision that you can make. And that's not, I can't tell you, you know, you must never allow your children to be kissed by grandma. You have to make the decision about what feels right to you and your husband, and your family about how you're going to adhere to those cultural norms or not. And that may shift in time as well, you know, as they get older, they may be more willing to kiss and then you'll relax a little bit.

Yeah, absolutely.

You'll sort of set a path and set an intention, and you'll hold that intention for as long as it makes sense.

Oh, that sounds very helpful. Really.

Okay, super. Are there any other sort of aspects of this that you wanted to talk through that we haven't addressed yet?

No, not really. I mean, I feel like I have some things to think about.

Yes, yes. And that's sort of a really big part of this is figuring out, you know, what do I want out of this, right? Where am I going with my parenting? What are my parenting goals? And how am I going to work on achieving those? And it's not necessarily sort of like a recipe where you say, “Okay, if I mix this, and that I'm gonna get this amazing child out the other end.” It's more of a, you know, are the ways that we're interacting with our children every day, generally supporting us in where we want to go. And if we feel really strongly that when they are 18, and they leave our house that they need to be clear in their own minds about who is touching them, and that they have the right to say no, then that kind of informs the decisions that you're making today. And if you feel as though it's more important to sort of adhere to cultural norms, in some cases, then that will inform the kinds of decisions that you make today. And so it's really being clear on what you're going to do in the future that's going to help you in the today, in the moment.

Exactly. And I think yeah, it's like with many things. I just need some time to think about it and you now really make the decisions, and then just stick with it and be comfortable with it. The moment it’s decided, the more probably I will be comfortable in front of there being with other people and in front of other people, and even maybe hearing some comments when I know why I do those things.

Exactly. And the awesome thing is your husband is on the same page and so you can back each other up.

Yes, that's really very nice that we agree on this type of parenting so we don't have to convince each other.

Yes. Not all parents are as lucky.

Yes, I'm really blessed with that.

Yeah, yeah. And you know, to be clear, you don't have to be on 100% the same page all the time. It's totally fine to have areas where you disagree. And we actually are going to spend a whole month talking about that in the group as well. And where there are areas where you disagree. Where is it okay to disagree? And where do you want to bring each other into greater alignment? And how do you go about doing that in a way that's not threatening? So it seems as though you're ahead of most of us on that.

But anyway, that sounds interesting, because we have a lot of discussions in the evenings, about various parenting topics, because, well, we– it's not that, you know, we do would agree automatically, because it's so different from our traditional way of parenting or the way people parent around us that we sometimes you know, it's probably normal. We get in doubt sometimes. So we have to talk about things so that sometimes we discuss as well in house, but we try to find this common ground for both of us.

Yeah, well, I think you're definitely on the right track here. And so I wish I could visit with you and see these conversations in action and meet your amazing family. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today.

Thank you, Jen. It was a pleasure talking to you. And it was very, very helpful. Thank you so much.

Good, I'm glad it was helpful.

Thanks for joining us for this episode of Your Parenting Mojo. Don't forget to subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com to receive new episode notifications, and the free guide to Seven Parenting Myths That We Can Leave Behind. And join the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group for more respectful research based ideas to help kids thrive and make parenting easier for you. I'll see you next time on Your Parenting Mojo.