Denise, hi everyone. I am Denise, a longtime listener of Your Parenting Mojo. I love this podcast because it condenses all the scientific research on child development, compares it with anthropological studies, and puts it into context of how I can apply all of this to my daily parenting. Jen has a wealth of resources here, so if you're new to the podcast, I suggest you scroll through all her episodes. I'm sure you'll find one that will help you with whatever you're going through, or one that just piques your interest. If you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox, along with a free infographic on 13 Reasons your child isn't listening to you (And what to do about each one), sign up at YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe. Enjoy the show.

Hello and welcome to the YourParentingMojo podcast. How comfortable do you feel speaking up about something your child's school needs? Have you noticed that some parents seem to feel more comfortable speaking up than others? Have you ever noticed that sometimes rules and policies in school don't seem to be applied evenly to all students, while squeaky wheels who raise issues that concern them and their children tend to get addressed? If you have and you'd like to understand more about what you're seeing and know what to do about it, then this episode is for you. Today. I'm here with two very special guests, Cassie Gardener Manjikian, who is a longtime listener of the podcast, as well as a coach and consultant who supports leaders focused on social change to achieve their goals. We also have Allyson Criner Brown, an award winning equity practitioner, trainer and scholar who has worked at the intersections of pre-K to 12 education, family and community engagement, environmental justice and local government. Allyson has co-authored and contributed to a variety of books, most recently, Engagement for Equitable Outcomes: A Practitioner's Playbook. She is a staunch supporter of excellence and equity in public schools, fervently believes that the systemic inequities that harm the rights, dignity and potential of people of color and people with low incomes can be undone. So welcome, Cassie. Thanks so much for teeing up this interview for us.

Yes, thanks for having me.

Yeah, thank you for the opportunity, and I'm delighted to be here on the podcast.

And Allyson. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom and expertise with us. I really appreciate it.

Super. So Cassie, you were the whole reason that we have this conversation here today. And so I wonder, can you tell us just a little bit about what prompted you to reach out to me in the first place?

Awesome. Thanks for setting that groundwork, Cassie, and so I think you're going to kick us off right with with our first question for Allyson. So did you want to head right into that?

Sure, yeah, that all being said, Allyson, can you tell us a bit about your work and what you see are the most important elements of it?

Sure. So again, I'm very happy to be here on the podcast, and I think the way that I'll introduce myself for your listeners, is I'm coming here with a couple of hats. So first, professionally, I am, I don't mind saying it. I am an award-winning equity practitioner, trainer and scholar. I am a practicing scholar in my field. I have been doing this work for more than 15 years. I currently actually direct racial equity training for local government, and I've done this space, done this work in both the school space, directly leading a nationally recognized family engagement project of the talent source project of teaching for change, which really approached family engagement through an approach that was informed by racial justice, community organizing, popular education and the top research and family engagement. So one of the ways I describe the work that I did for many years with people is I spent more than 10 years in and out of the parent centers at drop off in teachers classrooms and coaching principals. I coach DCPS and public charter school principals in Washington, DC for more than 10 years, before transitioning into local government and leading equity work there. And in addition to that, I am a parent of two young kids. This fall, I will have a first grader and a fifth grader in DC public schools. So I come to this from a variety of hats, both personal and professional, and I draw on both of those to do this work, even thinking about my own upbringing. Because one thing that we don't realize often is how much our own upbringing informs how we show up at school, both, you know, just in terms of the many different ways that parents are supporting their children in schools on a day to day basis, but even in you know how we feel about things like advocacy, speaking up and being able to notice what's going on in our schools, in terms of, you know, how are different groups truly benefiting from and being included in the school community. So it's a pleasure to be here and go ahead and ask me your first question again.

Yeah. Thank you so much. Allyson, it's incredible to hear about your background and all the hats you're bringing. You know, you talked about parent advocacy, and, you know, I know that's a big focus is working for equitable outcomes in schools. And just curious, what do those terms mean to you?

So one of the first things, let's start with equity. So one of the ways that I explain equity to people, especially people who say, you know, well, shouldn't we be working towards equality. You know, why are we working towards equity? And so I always tell people, equality is one of the highest values and ideals that we have in this country and in our society. However, equity or equality is really about treating everyone the same, and there can be value in that, but when you talk about giving the same resources, the same treatment, the same supports, that does not serve everyone well, not even equally, but doesn't serve everyone well. And so equality is really about sort of that input side and that process side of just treating everyone the same, regardless of you know where or how they are positioned in the school or in society. Equity, as I explained it, is really our path to get to more equal and just outcomes. So equity is about fairness. It is about need, and it's about the steps that we need to take to actually get to equal outcomes, and the fairness pieces is a key part to understand about equity, because what equity does is it requires us to look at both the past and the present and the context in which our students and school communities are and to figure out, what are these specific strategies and supports that we need to do so that we have all children reading on grade level.

We have all children, you know, being able to not just perform math and science and in all of these other areas when you talk about college and career readiness. But what do we need so that we really can address the whole child? You know, one of the things I think is very often for us to forget, and even people in schools to forget, is we're not just here for students like these are children, and children need things to grow and learn beyond just you know that reading, writing, arithmetic, so our schools are also preparing you. Not just the workers of tomorrow, but they're preparing the citizens and the residents of tomorrow, the community members of tomorrow, and the artists of tomorrow. So there's so much that we really do need to pour into our schools and investing in our children, and that's where advocacy comes in. So as someone who's done engagement work, both supporting schools to engage families, and then I've also done engagement work as a government employee, and so engagement is really about the organization or the entity that has the power. So the institutions and the systems that have power, engagements about the steps that they take to bring in stakeholders, including students, including families, into decision making processes, listening to them, to inform and shape, you know, the policies, the programs, the plans, etc. That is two-directional engagement should all be two-directional. Advocacy is actually one-directional. Advocacy is the people who are supposed to be benefiting from these institution, systems and policies, coming together, often coming together and working together to voice and to push for those policies, programs and plans to be done in ways that will benefit them. So advocacy is really about us as parents, caregivers, community members, speaking up and pushing for the schools that our children deserve.

There's a lot to unpack in all of that. I think we're gonna, we're gonna spend the rest of our time together, basically unpacking what you just said. And so Allyson, I'm wondering if we can sort of go back to basics a little bit, because I can imagine, particularly because I know that a large majority of my audience identifies as White and may have experienced school in certain ways when they were kids. And so now they kind of have this idea that, well, kind of showing up for my child's school means volunteering in the classroom, means going on field trips, right? Maybe joining the PTA. And so I'm wondering, can you start by laying some groundwork on what are other ways that children's parents may support them and their learning that may be less visible than some of the ways that we might be accustomed to seeing that support happen?

Yeah, sure, and for your audience members who are listening and not able to see our recording, so I do identify as a Black woman. I'm heterosexual, and from I would say, growing up, I grew up in the upper middle class, I think here, especially in DC, the way rents and housing keeps going up, I found myself in the middle class, and I have a disability, so I'm very used to looking at things from sort of different cross sections and intersections, and that very much lends itself to the work that I do so to the question of, how are parents supporting their children in schools, and what are some of the roles that they can play? So what you listed, you know, PTA, you know, sign up for the bake sale, those come to back to school night, those and even read with your kids for 15 minutes, if I had to summarize what are sort of the usual ways that you know schools communicate, they are expecting parents to engage or to participate, that's usually it. And the role that parents pay in their children's education, school learning and otherwise goes so far beyond that. So the saying that children are there, our parents are their children's first teachers, is absolutely true. By the time children get to preschool and then on to kindergarten, you know, those first, first five years of life are so tremendous in how children children's brains are shaping and sets a really, really strong foundation. And so, you know, everything that parents are doing, from making sure that children have, you know, getting to school on time, to nutrition, looking at those extracurricular and learning activities that children are do, and even talking with your children, there's a big movement, you know, talk, sing and read to your children, they are sponges, and they are constantly learning from us. And I think one thing that we don't appreciate enough in terms of important roles that parents play, and I'm going to use parents as a shorthand for parents and caregivers and any adult who is helping to care for a child. But we have a lot of parents who, quite frankly, making the rent payments, you know, working those jobs to make sure that rent is paid, that, you know, kids have their clothes and that hair is done. You know, all the things that we do to build up kids self-esteem, those are all really important to how children show up in school and how children learn and see themselves and even develop their own sense of identity and sense of agency. So there's so much that we don't see that is happening that parents are doing. And I will go ahead and say myself as a you know, I am not one of the parents who is dropping off a often, you know, before the bell. So, you know, but my kids are there every single day. You know, we're checking the backpack and we're checking the homework as much as we can, but we play a lot with our kids. I my oldest is very, very competitive, so we're playing a lot of games at home and learning, you know, about sportsmanship, and how do you channel that energy. And just as we get to know our children, that is actually an important form of knowledge, lived for knowledge and experience. A lot knowledge is an important form of knowledge, whether it's about your children, about your neighborhood, about the school community, all of those are important and resources that schools can tap into.

Wow. Thank you so much. Allyson. I mean, this is so amazing. You listing out all of the ways that parents can contribute to their children's education. It reminds me kind of of the mental load parents are holding of all all the things for our kids, and just, I think it's so important that we appreciate all of those steps it takes to drop our kids off at school on time and ensure they're getting the most out of their education. So thank you for listing all that. You know, I recognize I'm extremely privileged to be able to volunteer in my kids' school and as you mentioned, you know, that's not the case for all parents, due to so many underlying systemic factors kind of underneath that iceberg. And, you know, breaking down those factors will go into and curious in your experience, you know, what are some of the reasons why parents, some parents, might not seem to be involved in their children's education?

Yeah, so I really appreciate your framing of that question of, you know, what might be the reason you know that it might seem that some parents may not be involved in the children's education, and quite frankly, it really depends on what the school is actually seeing. So again, laid out those sort of cookie cutter expectations that are often placed upon parents by schools, and when those expectations aren't visibly met, then oftentimes, particularly when it comes to Black and Brown parents and caregivers, we may not realize it, those who've been educators, we may say that we're not, but oftentimes, Black and Brown parents are being looked down upon it. They are not checking those sort of traditional boxes. But one of the things that is really important to note is that parents and caregivers are coming from a wide variety of experiences with school and their understanding of school. And also, one of the things, the messages I'm constantly driving home with people is this is not a question of, Do parents care? This is a question of capacity. So, you know, even things like those evening meetings, I tell people, dinner doesn't cook itself, clothes don't fold themselves, dishes don't wash themselves, even with the machines that we have. And I've worked with a lot of parents and supported a lot of parents who actually were not only working jobs, but oftentimes going back to school themselves to set a model for their children and to look at, how can they improve their family status?

So we are oftentimes very much informed by a lot of assumptions that are made. And there are, there are real barriers in terms of, you know, can people take off work, just even transportation, sometimes to and from the school, especially during that rush hour traffic. These can all get in the way the timing of school events. I can tell you, having done family engagement professionally for more than 10 years, there is not one specific time that you can pick where everyone in the school, every single family, can be represented, and we need to respect that. And that's one of the reasons why, when family engagement is done well, is done through a multi-pronged approach, because, particularly when it comes to the school, it is actually incumbent upon the school to find ways to lower and address those barriers to participation. And there have been strategies that have helped that, especially if immersed in years, home visits are one of the strategies, especially when they're done well, and teachers are trained and supported, you know, not just expecting parents to come to the school, but how can we go to and meet them where they're at? And sometimes those home visits might be done at the local library or, you know, even a local restaurant or space where parents feel feel comfortable. But yes, we have a number of parents who may not feel comfortable. We have a number of parents who, you would be surprised, but I see this a lot in Washington, DC, who when they look at their own experience in education, growing up, and even the experience they've had as parents now, and I'm going to, in particular, speak from the viewpoint of many Black and Brown parents, especially those who have lower incomes. But oftentimes when parents I've worked with speak up, they don't see a response or feel heard or respected, even by the system. You know, if we say we need this, this is what we need for our school, or this is what my child needs. And you know, if that consistently is not listened to, or, you know, maybe it's listened to, but you don't see the action behind it, then why would you continue to speak up if you don't feel that? Your voice matters.

So again, we're oftentimes coming with a lot of assumptions about why parents may or may not be involved. That also, there are also cultural pieces, especially if you're you're talking about immigrant communities and recent immigrant communities. I've worked with families from Central America. I've worked with families from Ethiopia to eastern parts of Africa. I've worked with families from the Asian diaspora, and culturally, we've found that there are some commonalities, not in every single household or family, but there are some cultural norms of, you know, I send my child to the school and the teacher educates them, and then, you know, I do what I do at home. Who am I to question the teacher? Who am I to question the principal? And that was a lot of the work that I was doing at teaching for change was actually meeting those parents and families where they are not just trying to tell them, here's what we want you to do or here's what we expect you to do, but actually listening to them and getting to understand where they were and how we then could meet them there. And if you look at teaching for changes work, there's several videos. If you go on the site, teachingforchange.org shout out to my people still there. Very much support their work in their 35th anniversary so please do support Teaching for Change. But you'll see in some of those videos that we I mean, we had parents reading in classes who could not actually functionally read, and that was because we knew that they wanted to support it's going to say, well, you can read in class. Well, okay, well, what time are we going to do it? You know, what books are we going to read? And a lot of parents, you know, may not feel comfortable with getting up in front of the class like, just think yourself, what would it be like to stand up, you know, in front of the class, you know, and even to read a book, just even how you hold the book. A lot of these are things that, you know, those of us who have education privilege may take for granted. So one of the things that we did at Teaching for Change, that I'm very proud of is, you know, we bring selections of books, and we always chose multicultural, anti-bias books because the parents wanted to fill in the gaps. You know, they knew they would read about. You know, there were a lot of topics that they'll definitely read about at school, but learning about their own cultures, learning about messages of justice and community, parents wanted to be a part of filling in those gaps in the curriculum. And so, you know, they would select a book they always knew you might read in your child's class, but we're going to read across the school, and we have these great pictures and videos of parents coming and reading four and five and six at a time, because even the idea of, maybe I don't feel comfortable reading the book, you know, whole book myself. But if I read a page, and you read a page and you read a page, you see now that lowers the barrier, you know, for access and participation, and invites people in and then they make connections. The teachers love it.

We used to have a whole parking lot of strollers right outside the classrooms, and so there's a combination of those of us who feel comfortable, whether we're working in schools or other parents. Sometimes things really are more accessible when we come together in groups, but it really is about meeting people where they at because where they are at because we had parents who, you know, not only did not necessarily speak English, but we had a number of parents who were not necessarily literate in the language that they spoke. So I worked with families coming from Central American countries that spoke indigenous language, where Spanish was their second language. And they may or may not have learned, you know, to read that. But we would tell, what we would tell people is, you know, you can always come and hold the book. You know, if we have more people to hold the books and flip the pages, you know, the kids can then, you know, we have better visual, you know, visuals for the kids. And so we had a lot of parents who participated that way. I mean, we had tons of parents who would read in the classrooms. And then when you start to find that entry point where people start to build comfort and relationships, including with other parents, that's how you build community, and community is how you bring people into the school.

Yeah, wow. Thank you so much. Allyson, there's so much wisdom you're sharing about like, co-creating community, right? And how do we make that happen by meeting people where they're at and through inclusive, equitable, you know, models of participation and really acknowledging all those systemic barriers that you named so beautifully. I'm curious, kind of digging a little deeper, what kinds of social justice underlying challenges do you see in schools, you know, that you can maybe elaborate on again, that are kind of hindering, that that co-creation of school community?

Yeah, in terms of hindering the co-creation of school community, one of the biggest challenges is really funding resources and capacity, including on the school side. So one of the reasons why a lot of the family engagement work that I did was very effective was because it wasn't only my team of parent organizers who were supporting the school, but we actually had to require me that schools identify a parent coordinator that takes resourcing and staffing in the school. And quite frankly, there is a lot more that we could do if we were resourcing and staffing our schools more, you know. Think about all of the teachers that we have that you know, are also a coach for. You know something here, all of the club you know, more of the clubs and opportunities that we could have, you know, if we had additional staffing and resources. So that is really a key component. Teaching and working in schools is very challenging work. It continues to only grow more challenging and actually engaging families is a recipe for success for student outcomes, improving student outcomes. But I think, I think when it, when it comes to the barriers to advocacy, a lot of it is, you know, people, and particularly parents and caregivers, just don't know what they don't know. So a lot of people don't know how the school really works and functions as a system. They don't necessarily know. There are things that you can ask for, you can push for. You know that your school should be receiving we should not be running out of toilet paper in you know, November and April of every year, the things that you see in school that could be improved for your children. There are specific people and positions that you can advocate to.

Allyson, I'm wondering if you can also talk a little bit more about money, because where money gathers and where money flows, I think is really important to this conversation as well.

Yeah, so I will go ahead and tell you now, Jen, I will very much encourage you to have a follow up episode that just specifically talks about school funding, because it's, I mean, it's a huge issue, and it's an issue that also, in many ways, does need to be localized. So one of the sort of pervasive issues nationwide that we still unfortunately often see is schools, when you have a system where each individual school is funded based on the property taxes of the area than in the wealthier neighborhoods where you have more revenues coming in from property taxes, those schools tend to be, you know, better funded than in areas where you have lower property taxes. In this country, you know, thanks to capitalism and the history of racial capital that we capitalism, that we have, that very often and very strongly tends to correlate with race as well. So areas that are wider tend to also be wealthier, areas that tend to have more Black and Brown families and communities tend to have lower property taxes and less resources. That does not hold true and constant for every single school community, but it is an ongoing and a legacy issue to be addressed that also couples with, you know, things like, how much can your PTA or PTO, you know, raise, you know, and are they filling in gaps, or are they adding to in Washington, DC is a really interesting example that in many ways, replicates the norms, but is different, structurally so in DC for the DC public school system. Schools are not funded individually based on the property taxes of the neighborhoods around them. Instead, what effectively happens is the taxes are all pooled, and the funding comes out in the budget, and it's distributed based on the number of students that are being educated, and then it's further redistributed.

You know, if you're adding in Title One Funds, if you are adding in funds for special education, you know, for students with disabilities, so on and so forth. And so there are parts of the funding mechanism that you know do look equal, and there are parts that do look equitable. And yet still, the schools are by and large underfunded, to the point where we have PTAs in Washington, DC that are consistently raising over a million dollars each year. And we have a wide, wide range of schools that don't even have a PTA or a PTO. We have schools, yeah, we have schools in DC that are funding aids, that where the PTO is, funding aids, funding the science teacher, funding actual programs in the school. And we also see we have a pervasive issue where public schools, especially those that do not have, you know, PTO or PTA, maybe receiving extra funds like title one dollars, you know, so on and so forth. But if you actually run the numbers and do the analysis of the budget. Those extra dollars are aren't adding on top of a fully funded school. So instead of supplementing, we found there's a pervasive issue of they're actually supplanting. So the dollars that are supposed to be extra are just being used to keep the school afloat and just keep the staff you know, sort of that you have. So the underfunding and under resourcing of public schools is a very serious issue that impacts us all. It's a complicated issue.

When you add in things like funding for charter schools, and charter schools can play, you know, a vital role. They can play a vital role in our education ecosystem. However, I'm certainly in the campus as you know, our charter schools are not the solution, and I'm always asking, you know, well, does this new school opening? How does that benefit the students we already have in the schools that already exist? If you bring vouchers into the conversation, you know, that is, you're talking about spreading the dollars even more. That's a conversation in and of itself. But these are very real and relevant issues that impact. Are we fully staffed this year? Does every grade get to go on a field trip? I love my kids' school, but the field trips that they get are largely through summer camp. So and one of the I need to say this because one of the drums that I've also been consistently beating that I see now is sort of a the canary in the coal mine are really just sort of like a marker of the resourcing of your school. Is, could your school put on a school play next year? Like, think about what it takes to put on a school play. Not only do you need to, potentially, you know, pay the rights to use the script, we're also talking about the costumes, you know, the lighting, the props, and then even above and beyond that. Do you have the staffing or the volunteers who can work with the kids who aren't burnt out by the day to day at their job and can actually make that commitment to put on a school play? So to me, a school play is a new hallmarker of resourcing for our schools, whether it's provided by the school district or otherwise.

I'm going to leave private schools out of this conversation, because think that's a separate conversation. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. And then even something like, you know, the idea now, you know, 10 years ago, we were really pushing hard for parent centers and parent coordinators, because when you talk about taking those extra efforts to engage with families, which, quite frankly, really should not be seen as extra. Family engagement should not be seen as extra. The reason it is is because of a resourcing issue of time, bandwidth, energy. So the school resourcing is absolutely one of the equity issues that we need to address because we can better resource our schools. A lot of advocacy work, and a lot of the work that I do is just not accepting the norm as it is in Washington, DC. You need to tell me, in the nation's capital, we cannot have outstanding public schools that can fully serve each and every single child. I just refuse to accept that. We look at other countries, and, you know, there are other countries where they are freshly cooking and preparing, you know, breakfast and lunch and those snacks in the kitchens at the schools, you know, from from scratch to the table and so, yeah, that's one of the reasons why I'm very, still very, very big into advocacy and the important role that it plays, because parents, parents really have been the drivers of a lot of you know, what we do actually see and benefit from in schools, coming from speaking up and demanding the schools that our kids deserve.

We just this year celebrated the 70th anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education, which was the land makes landmark ruling that led to desegregation of public schools separate but unequal is inherently unequal. The Brown first board ruling was the result of five court cases that the NAACP strategically brought to the US Supreme Court. And in each of those cases, there were students who were centered who were denied access based on these based on segregated schools. Well, who do you think played the role of bringing those court cases to the NAACP, of working with the lawyers? One of those court cases happened here in Washington, DC, bowling versus sharp, and it was a Black's parents who were fed up at the overcrowding in DC Black schools. We had schools in DC that were in the under the segregated system that were so crowded that the Black students had to come to school in shifts, either the morning shift or the afternoon shift, and that was not the case for any White schools in the district. So you're literally talking about half an education, you know, compared to your peers and the you know, these legal changes in the fight for justice came because parents said, "We don't accept that." So it's really important for us to note as parents, as caregivers and community members, that speaking up and advocacy for our children is always worth doing.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, thank you for that. And so I know that, you know, we talked a lot about funding, and I know that policies are also really important to you, and you know how policies developed and how they're applied, and I would love to dig into that, but I know Cassie has a lot of questions about, okay, how can we make change? And so I really want to make sure that we have time for that. So Cassie, do you want to kind of lead kind of lead us through sort of a discussion of like, where do we go from here if we're seeing some of these issues in our schools? What practically can we do to really bring about the change, the kind of change that Allyson is talking about?

Yeah, thank you so much, Jen, thanks Allyson, for that incredible history. So you and your you know, folks you work with have produced so many amazing resources for principals and teachers and parents who want to work toward building equity and education, but this kind of assumes that maybe there's someone in the school with some authority who wants to start making these changes. And if I'm a parent who sees, you know, my child's school has some challenges in this area, but maybe the principal hasn't been receptive to it, or the PTA seems more comfortable kind of doing things as they've always been done, what would you suggest I try, especially when everyone you know, as you name, teachers, administrators and parents are already seem over capacity?

Yeah, so that's a, that's a really interesting question, because, you know, sometimes, you know, there's sort of the case by case thing, right? So, like, what is this particular issue that you want to work for? Is this, you know, and I think advocacy starts whether it's something related to your specific child or to the classroom, or even to the grade, you know, why does our grade have no field trips this year? When you're talking about things like, you know, we should create a diversity, equity, inclusion and justice committee, when you're looking at issues related to, you know, funding, resources, curriculum, policy, yeah, so there's each of those may require a bit of a different angle and a bit of a different approach, but one of the first things that I would say that people can do is start talking to others around you. Ask people in the school questions. Ask other parents, you know, have they noticed this? Do they know anything about this? And one of the things that I encourage people to do as well, again, depending on what your issue is, is, you know, go to your elected leaders, ask your elected leaders. We have a state board of education here. There are people who who are paid to be public servants to support you, and oftentimes they may not know about the direct issues going on in your specific school, you know, affecting your specific grade. And I know for a lot of folks, that may still be a leap, you know, and still be an effort to even do that, but the first thing really is figure out who you can speak up to and speak up with. Because if we see something, but if we you know, just keep it to, you know, ourselves, that's not going to start the gears of moving towards change.

And there's one of the resources that I have that I that I'll leave it as recommended, in addition to my book, which we haven't talked to but I'll get to that in just a moment. But there's a book and I have it here, so I want to make sure I get the title correct By Deepa Iyer, and it's called Social Change Now: A Guide For Reflection and Connection. And one of the things that I appreciate about this book is she introduces what she calls the social change ecosystem framework. And really it's the idea is that there is a role that everyone can play so, you know, she says some people are guides in the work that they do. They can help figure out and navigate. Well, what are the different parts of the system? You know, what office, you know, handles this matter. There are other people who are, you know, disruptors, who are willing to, you know, challenge the principal, or, you know, write that email. I tell people, we do need email warriors. That is something that you can absolutely harness for good. There are some folks who are visionaries, who really they have a vision for well, here's what we could do and here's what it could look like. There are so many different roles. Connectors is one as well. Are you someone who is very comfortable, you know, talking to other people, talking to other parents? Do you know how to break the ice? So one of the key, you know, sort of lessons to take from this is, I encourage people to lean into their strengths, and lean into the areas in which they are most comfortable. And as you start to do that, and especially when you can make connections with others, then you start to be able to leverage strengths, all right, and and that, again, is that's how we build community. And we have more power when we are in community.

So, you know, if you see an issue, oftentimes we may want to jump straight to, you know, sort of resolving the issue, or what do we do? Ask questions, make connections with others, because then you might find out something like, oh, well, did you know the principal does a meeting once a month? Or I actually serve for my children's school in DC public schools. We have a body that's called the LSAT Local School Advisory Team, and that is actually it's required of every school. It's made up of the principal, teachers, parents and their spot for community member, and that's a place where you can advocate. So depending on your school, your school system, you know just the context of where you are, a lot of really good organizing work is just first learning the landscape with which you are in. But again, one step that everyone can always take, and it might surprise you, this is my first recommendation. Is just start by making connections, asking questions, getting more information. Because as you get more information and make those connections, then sort of the impossible starts to become the possible.

Okay? And then I want to build on that a little bit. And because that we're, you know, Cassie's question was kind of framed up as well, if we're the ones kind of on the ground level as parents who are starting this work, right? But maybe there's a principal listening to this, or maybe I'm a parent, and I know that my principal is at least receptive to some of these ideas and wondering, can you tell us about some tools that could take us to the next level? And I'm thinking of some of the things that you helped to produce in your work, for Teaching for Change. Can you tell us about how some of those can help us to advance our dialog and our practice on that?

Yeah, so when it comes to schools and administrators in particular, there's a whole field of family engagement and how to do family engagement well. And, you know, sometimes things that I've seen parents do is they help connect principals in schools to some of these resources. So again, I'll do shameless plug for Teaching for Change. There's several guys there. There's a whole manual on how to do monthly parent principal chats, including sample agendas. You know, we really try to make it easy for people and share the lessons that we've learned. There's a publication that you'll see between families and schools, which I continue to be tremendously proud of, that offers some really key ways to challenge our assumptions, because one of the reasons why administrators and people working in schools sometimes are hard, maybe hard to move is because they don't realize they are actually being held back by their assumptions about parents and schools and students, you know, and families and even what could be possible and what could be done. But then I will be very honest, this is where I have to put both my parent hat on and my community organizer hat on if you are running into that kind of tension. If you are, you know, seeing that kind of pushback, I have been a part of efforts of parents who came together and said, this school leadership does not represent the best interest of our children, and have directly challenged that because at the end of the day, particularly speaking about public schools. Public schools are there to serve the public the teachers, administrators and staff all the way up through central office. They are public servants. And I say that professionally, as a public servant myself, if we are not adequately serving our schools and school communities, then we need to be doing a better job. And one of the ways that we can learn and have to accept that is by actually listening to the people who know these schools best, the people who are there, the students, the families, the teachers, because we're the ones who can tell you what's really going on, you know. We can tell you that there has been no sub. You know, we haven't been able to get subs for a long time, and so now the instructional coaches, you know, serving as you know, this a step in for one of the teachers who's, you know, out for, you know, leave for a different kind of reason. We're the ones who have eyes and ears on, you know, the aids are being spread too thin, or we don't have enough aids right now. So there's, it's, there's, there is a natural push and pull. Our schools are democratic institutions, and they require democratic action. And I, and I'm going to particularly talk about that lower case d, democratic. You know, of the active involvement of the people and democracy is not just at the polls. It is in your schools on a day to day basis. We will improve and transform our schools and the systems that serve them by us speaking up, and I'm going to pause there, but that actually does connect directly to research that supports that as well, not just for education, but I'm a co-author of a book called Engagement for Equitable Outcomes: A Practitioners Playbook, and we actually lay out there, and I'm Happy to you know, kind of just briefly walk through some examples of why this advocacy approach is actually connected to the research and how we get to more equitable and improved outcomes.

Yeah, did you want to share a little of that with us?

Yeah, sure. So again, the book, shameless plug, is Engagement for Equitable Outcomes. And I co-authored this book with Tom professors for my graduate program. So I have a bachelor's degree in US history, and I also have a master's degree in public administration. So that's a degree for folks who are particularly interested in nonprofit government at all levels, and so we teamed up on this book that really started by asking the question of saying, you know, we know we have these pervasive inequalities and inequities, you know, specifically speaking about the United States, but in our society, and in particular, they largely break down along racial lines when you look at health outcomes, education outcomes, you know, income, you look across all these major systems. So we have these pervasive inequities, but education is a great example. We can say, well, we also have programs that have been shown to be strong and promising interventions. You know, we have programs that can help close some of these gaps. So if we have the problems and we have some potential solutions, well, why haven't we solved the problems?

And so it really starts looking at, you know, what are the challenges, and us being able to replicate successful programs, and then also to be able to scale successful programs up? And so we lay out the research for why there are challenges. But ultimately, I think, kind of the the in a kernel, or in a nutshell, that I'll provide is, even when we have something promising. We need to use our data to inform our decision making, but the data and the you know, this program structure and design itself doesn't actually speak to and for the people in the context in which you're bringing in. So for us to actually be successful, you need the policy makers. You need the data crunchers. We need do need to be looking at our school and other data. But the framework that we lay out is that it's data and engagement for equitable outcomes, so the people who are intended to benefit the most, whether it's students, whether it's families, whether it's teachers, whether it's other community members, they need to be involved at every stage and step, including even defining what is the problem or the issue that we want to solve. Because people working in, you know, government or to school level or policy makers are often coming to these conversations with, you know, their own or our own particular framing, and there are interests behind that. Sometimes it's, you know, we need to get this done before the end of the year. That's not necessarily the same priorities that families and students in school communities have. So the programs that were able to replicate and were able to scale for success, it was because they did it with the people and with the communities that were supposed to benefit, because then they could shape and say, "Well, they did this here, but here's how it would work better here." Even something in schools and the work that, you know, Teaching for Change, we had signature activities that we would bring into a school. We had one where parents would read in the class. We had a model for doing monthly parent principal meetings. We had another program that was or another model for how to do grade level parent meetings. If you've heard of academic parent-teacher team meetings. We had our own version of that. We call them grade level dialogs. But even when we would go into a new school, we'd first have to figure out, you know, sort of, what are the strengths of this school? How do parents and students and families and even the teachers and staff themselves see the school community? And then sort of like, what's the place for us to start? So we never came in imposed any of you know, our programs or approaches on schools. We always did a process of co-creation and listening, because also sometimes there were other issues going on in the school. And so we're not trying to eclipse that you know or take over, that you really have to listen and work and build with people, because that can also give you a sense of, you know, what are we ready for right now? What do we need to work towards in the long term? And, you know, again, if I am coming in well meaning, well, what do I need to know about, what else is going on in the school community, who I can build with, and how to do that? So an advocacy then, when I talked about that sort of one directional piece, advocacy is really about being proactive and speaking up for what our children and what our school communities need. So advocacy is part of that work of data and engagement is how we get to equitable outcomes.

So thank you so much for sharing that. Alison and I know that Cassie has more questions on okay, yes, from the macro level, that makes perfect sense. And then, like, what does that actually mean for, like, boots on the ground? So Cassie, how do you want to kind of wrap up our time together today?

Yeah, this has been so helpful, Allyson. You know, I'm just so curious what advice you might have for our school, and that we do have this diversity equity inclusion priority in our district strategic plan. You know, we have this parent group focused on social justice. Our teachers get anti-racist professional development, and yet, there's still all these things happening at our school, and there's just a big difference between policies and practices. So I'm really curious, you know, what advice you might have for parents who are eager to support schools and investor time and resources and helping them to kind of implement these policies and kind of be more accountable?

Yeah, so when the policies are there and when the practice isn't, honestly, that is an ongoing and widespread issue that I think a lot of people are consistently working towards and that honestly, will probably be that, I think one of the main things that I would pull out. So when I think about, yeah, there is a lot, there is a lot written in policy, but especially at the school level, we do see continued inequities. So one thing I can say, and I have more of an appreciation for this, of working in government now, there are some things that will take time. It took 400 years to get us to this point today, and for the bulk of that history. Our systems and structures were literally rooted in White Supremacy, and so it would be remiss of me to not bring that into some of the framing of you know, if we don't see instant results, well, we didn't get here in an instant either. So it is going to take some rolling up the sleeves and being consistent and pressing forward. I would also say, be strategic. One of the best ways to make change in your school is to really figure out and hone in on what is something that we can do, that really is going to be actionable and that we can do for the school. Sometimes you might want to break it down, what can we do for the school? What can we do with the school, especially as you have these coordinated efforts, sometimes parents in those committees can be very useful in being the researchers themselves? And what are some of these top practices, or who can we bring in or bringing in lessons from different books and other efforts? But you really do want to draw on the strengths of your school community, and hold up, lift up those inequities and where we are falling short. Because one thing that also happens in at the school level and even in policy making, we may come up with a solution and say, "Okay, well, this is the strategy that we're going to do," and we try it. Once, and, well, maybe the first time, we don't quite get it. But what did we learn from that? How can we improve?

So oftentimes, we're not really actually looking for a lot of things that are brand new. A lot of times, it's actually really being in strategic and how do we leverage what we know and what we have, and how do we grow and improve? But, you know, things like bias, stereotypes, structural racism, these are all built into our public school systems, you know, unfortunately. So I also, you know, want to encourage people, if you don't again, get the instant results that you're hoping for, you do need to keep pressing, keeping strategic. There have been sometimes where I've seen, you know, you kind of walk down one path and you figure out, maybe we're not fully equipped to do this, but figure out, you know, what we are equipped to do, and you know, there's so much potential that we really do have for our schools. That's one of the that's one of the frustrations that I have about us, not, you know, fully resourcing our schools. There is so much potential there for us to unpack. But you know, I'm constantly reminded that, you know, to get to, you know, even what we have today took a lot of constant and consistent work and pushing and pressure. Even I was having a conversation with someone, or it's come up in the news, really, where we're talking about, you know, we should provide all kids, you know, with lunch. We should make school lunch debt a thing of the past. And just even the idea of free breakfast and lunch at schools came from, I'm from Oakland, California, so, you know, of course, I have to shout out, you know, the Black Panther Party. You know who started this effort to say we are going to feed children. Children perform better in school when they are not hungry. So it just even that idea in figuring out how to implement that. And you know the fact that now that is actually policy like free breakfast and lunch, you know, for, you know, Title One schools, you know, schools who are and for families with lower incomes.

So there's a part of this where we have to push community organizers, if veteran community organizers, will tell you, don't win every battle, but we have to learn. And so what you tried this year, you may see some successes. You may see some results. There's an important part of equity and engagement work that always involves reflection, and you know, you can't, to be honest, you can't always look to, you know, people like me or even other experts for the answers. The answers are within the community. The answers are within your specific context, you know, sort of your school. And we, those of us who do equity and community engagement work, to be frank, we're in this for the long haul. It's like anti-racism work. It is a commitment that you make, you strategize, you try things, you learn, and that's, quite frankly, what's behind a lot of the secret sauce of our success. So you know, one thing I hope that you know your listeners and audience take away from this is, quite frankly, you have to start, you know, start somewhere, start somewhere and keep taking those next steps, because success is not come overnight. To transform systems requires real work. And there are things that we can do individually and that they there are things that we can do that we are much stronger when we are working together. But at the end of the day, when I think about what my children deserve and what I believe that children you know across my city and across this country deserve, even though I haven't figured it all out, that's just what push that's what pushes me to keep going, and that, quite frankly, is how we're going to get there.

It reminds me of that proverb about planting a tree who under whose shade you do not expect to sit. And I could imagine that the people who brought those lawsuits that were ultimately resolved in Brown v. Board of Education, maybe their kids were graduated by the time that was actually resolved, right? And we get to bear the fruits of their labor. And so we are kind of establishing we're planting more seeds today that we may never sit under the shade that we are trying to plant. And yet, somebody else's child will sit under that shade in the future, and they will be able to plant more seeds because of it so.

And it's not always in the distant future. In Washington, DC, we were able to push it took some years of advocacy, but we were able to get our council, and then the mayor, to pass a law that now requires for every school to have a librarian, the media specialist position that can used to come up in testimonies each year for schools. You know, we shouldn't be choosing that we have to cut our librarian. And so even some of our immediate advocacy efforts, like I said, when you feel across schools, when we start listening and you realize that this issue is not just an issue for me alone, and then when you started hearing from across all of our different wards in Washington, DC, that. This was a pervasive issue. We actually were able to get the policy change. And as someone who sits on the LSAT and reviews the school's budget each year, when the funding comes out. I'm so glad the librarian is a protected position that we don't have to fight for, and that, again, illustrates there is always possibility, and so we just can't resign ourselves to the status quo. We can, and it really is, quite frankly, up to us to push for because the systems are not designed to transform themselves. That's not what systems are designed to do. They are designed to execute. So we are the ones who actually are best positioned to push and to transform the systems. And again, we can do that in ways as individuals, but we are always stronger together, and as you have the capacity you know, to learn, to contribute, I encourage people to do that.

Yeah, and so we always try to leave listeners with some some practices that they can try based on kind of where they are in their journey, right? There are some people who are going to be super, super new to this work, just understanding it for the first time through this conversation today. There are going to be other people who are much further along on this journey, have been working on it for a while. And so we think about these at the levels of, right? I'm curious. I'm just just learning about it. I'm learning more about it. I'm I'm ready for growth, I'm ready for change, right? And so I to me hear the curious loud and clear, talk to other parents, talk to parents in your community and see what issues they're facing. So I'm curious if you agree on that, and then are there sort of this mi-level and this, you know, I've been practicing for a while, sort of growth level that you would advise parents to actions to take for parents.

Yeah, so I so there's the talking to other people is kind of like that icebreaker that that first step, and that also includes, you know, talking to getting to know folks in the school. Because when you start to actually build relationships with principals, with teachers, you know, that's one of the ways that you know, I certainly find out about, you know, what's going on in school as you build that trust. Because ultimately, you know, we want the kids to, you know, we want kids to have what they need. For those who I would say are at that sort of, you know, mid-level, you know, have some knowledge, has some comfort, some familiarity, I would offer, I think, sort of two strands. One is, well, actually maybe three strands. Okay, so one is go from the asking questions to really start building connections and community outside your comfort zone. So it's very easy for us to talk to parents who look like us, you know, families that seem like us. But this isn't just about doing advocacy for people. This is really about acting in solidarity. So if you feel comfortable, start making it just even talking to people again, you know parents that may and that you maybe don't usually talk to, you would really be surprised. You would really be surprised how powerful that can end up being. I would also encourage people to learn more about the systems and the structure and the ecosystem in which you're in. What you see when you get to the school is only the tip of the iceberg of decision making when it comes to what happens in schools. So start to take more of a peek under the water, because, you know, you might be that person to be able to say, well, actually, it's this office that you go to. It's this office. And every time you know things that I've learned about the school system have really been we're trying to solve an issue. Who can actually solve it, you know? And where do we need to go? So there isn't necessarily know that there isn't necessarily a manual or a playbook, but it's worth taking that time. And then also, I would encourage you know people to continue on their anti-racist journey. I so appreciate that this is a podcast that really centers anti-racism as one of your core components, because that also is how we act in solidarity. This is not about charity. This is not about sympathy. This is not even about empathy. This is really about solidarity.

And then for your folks who are more advanced, the key word that I would say is act is, you know, action. So take action, send that email, you know, ask that question, and but always do that again. It's just really building on what I said for that mid-level. Make even more connections. You know, figure out, how can you start to: Hey, do you know such and such? I'm connecting people all the time. Oh, did you know this parent? They look they're in your neighborhood, so be one of those agents that can help you know, either lend your skills directly to advocacy efforts and what's going on in your school, that can help bring people together. And for all, you know people at all ages, stages and you know whatever part of your journey continue to support your own children and take care of yourselves as well, because we show up for this work best when, when we are at our best, to being very honest doing this work, when we talk about capacity, you know, I want to be very real like, you know, it takes energy to really do this. So find ways to be strategic. You know, give more when you can give more. Connect and also look at some of the organizations in your area that are doing work. In DC, we have word education councils, which are just community groups that formed to say, you know, here's a space where we can talk about what's happening in our schools. There are different non-profits and advocacy groups you know that are working in education spaces. So if you're in that advanced area, again, start looking at not only the ecosystem of the school, but some of the larger ecosystem. Because what a lot of advocacy groups are also looking for is parents who can speak to those issues. And when you are doing that, if you are serving as a parent representative, again, we are in solidarity. We want to be in solidarity because strong public schools benefit us all.

And one last thought that I do have to give, that also applies to just each of those levels, for anyone who's listening to this podcast, who maybe is not a parent or caregiver, there's a role that you can play too, you know, is, as a working mom, I am always trying to figure out, what are we having for dinner tonight? You know, right now I'm thinking about back to school shopping and all of these other things. It really is a lot to be a parent these days. We have much less support, many of us, than previous generations. And so one of the ways that people can be supportive to parents, children and school communities is to help and support on some of that advocacy. So there are several women who are Black women here in DC who do not have children, but they're either in some kind of leadership role or they're participating in some of these different groups that I've talked about. I call them the education aunties, because that is a role that we need the aunties to play. We need people who can go and testify at the school board meeting. We need people who can go you know, who can sometimes write the emails, who are willing to go and speak to the superintendent, you know, or the chancellor. It's at no loss to them, you know. So there, there's a collective role for for each of us to play. There are very often few straightforward answers, and sometimes the answers that we do receive, we need to challenge them, because again, at the end of the day, our schools will get better when we speak up and when we work together.

Yeah, I think that issue that you touched on about, you know, our schools serve all of us, right? They don't just serve children. They serve our entire society. And, yeah, it's in our culture. It's like issues related to children or, I mean, that's parents' job, that's not anybody else's job, when actually it's our whole culture's job. And I so appreciate you wrapping up with that. Cassie, is there anything you'd like to say to kind of feel complete in our conversation as the person who brought this about?

This is just so helpful. Thank you so much Allyson. It resonates so deeply with the anti-racist work we've been doing. And just one thing I'd like to mention that, you know, I think is maybe relevant, is in terms of being strategic. It's been really challenging on the anti-racist front, and that's a lifelong commitment. And we've also found a lot of success actually partnering with an awesome school board member around green schoolyards, who's a fellow mom and activist and a woman of color. And through that project, we're working with parents across the district, and we're actually able to make meaningful progress at the district level on a policy when, you know, earmarking some upcoming bond funds to transform our school yard into a more sustainable and engaging environment for all students. So I think there's a lot of promise and hope and opportunities to find and work with allies in the school system to achieve impactful change. So just wanted to share that last little policy victory that we're proud of, because, I mean, it shines a light on ways to be strategic in different ways.

Yeah, beautiful. Thanks for sharing that and illuminates the idea that you don't have to just look within your school right there, there are other people in other places who can bring about change. So thank you, Cassie, for surfacing this issue, being willing to come and basically run the interview with me. Really appreciate your energy and your thoughtfulness in setting up this conversation. So thank you Cassie.

Thank you so much, Jen. It's been such a pleasure. And thank you so much, Allyson, for your time and talent and wisdom and guidance, it's just been so inspiring. So thank you.

And you just said what I was gonna say.

Yeah, yeah. I appreciate you both. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much.

Yes we really appreciate your time and your resources, and we'll put links to all of the Teaching for Change resources that Allyson has been a part of throughout her career, as well as her books and all of the papers that I read in preparation for this episode. All that is going to be available at YourParentingMojo.com/EquitableOutcomes.

Allyson wanted me to share that many of the parents she worked with went from volunteering in school to joining the staff at the school, testifying to city leaders and even running for local office. She was and continues to be inspired by them. And on that note, I would also like to add that parents like Cassie and the parents in my Learning Membership community whose children are in school and who fight for the well being of their own children and all children in school inspire me as well.

I'm a your parenting Mojo fan, and I hope you enjoy the show as much as I do. If you found this episode especially enlightening or useful, you can donate to help Jen produce more content like this. Just go to the episode page that Jen mentioned. Thanks for listening.