211: How to raise a child who doesn’t experience shame

Denise: 00:03

Hi everyone, I am Denise, a longtime listener of Your Parenting Mojo. I love this podcast because it condenses all the scientific research on child development compares it with anthropological studies, and puts it into context of how I can apply all of this to my daily parenting. Jen has a wealth of resources here. So, if you're new to the podcast, I suggest you scroll through all her episodes. I'm sure you'll find one that will help you with whatever you're going through, or one that just piques your interest. If you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox, along with a free infographic on 13 Reasons your child isn't listening to you (And what to do about each one), sign up at YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe. Enjoy the show.

Jen Lumanlan: 00:59

Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. I want to start today's episode with a few questions. Are there parts of yourself that you don't share with other people? Maybe things that you think well, if people knew that about me, they wouldn't love me. They think I'm a terrible person. Maybe they wouldn't even want to be around me. When you mess up does it seem like it's not you that did a silly or a bad thing, but that you are stupid or a bad person? If your answer to any of these questions is yes, then that's a pretty good sign that you are experiencing shame. Shame can be such an integral part of our life by the time we get to adulthood that we might not even know who we are without the shame that we feel. But what if we didn't have to be that way? What if we could raise children with a fundamental sense of enoughness because they know they are lovable for who they are as a person?

Jen Lumanlan: 01:52

Today's episode will give us a glimpse of what that looks like. This is a conversation with a parent Dee. You actually have already met her maybe a few weeks ago, if you caught the How to get on the same page as your parenting partner episode, she was featured there with her husband, Jono. And I actually recorded this conversation with her first, after she posted in the Sharing Wins and Gratitude space of our Parenting Membership community about some really big insights and progress that she had made. Dee has a great relationship with her mom and having been in the Parenting Membership for a while now, Dee sees that her mom was basically using the same tools that we use here on the podcast, and in the membership. As a result, Dee knows that she is loveable exactly the way she is. And for that reason, she really doesn't experience shame in the way that many of us do. Sure, she still struggles with things. She attends the Healing Shame calls that we talked about in the episode. She discusses her frustration and also sometimes she feels some shame about not being productive enough in a culture where productivity and accumulation of stuff is how success is measured. But that's very different from the challenges other parents I work with face, who have this sense that if people knew who they really were, they would know that the person is awful and not lovable. And Dee doesn't have any of that.

Jen Lumanlan: 03:09

The second is that she's put a lot of time and energy into parenting their child Ru. You might even notice this episode is a bit choppy because Dee's internet signal at home is not good and so she went to a community center to record the episode, and Ru was occupied with screentime in the same room because he wouldn't have wanted to be apart from Dee for several hours. And he did interrupt the conversation a number of times.

Jen Lumanlan: 03:32

And now Dee can also see that her mom put a lot of time and effort into parenting her and her sister. Her relationship with her mom may have come at the price of her parents' own relationship. They're now divorced, and Dee definitely wants to walk a different path they with Jono. Now she and Jono are using tools from the Gottman method that we discussed in the How to get on the same page as your parenting partner episode to come into more alignment on how they can meet Dee and Jono's needs for connection, as well as Ru's need for connection. So having the tools and skills to work with Ru has been really important for Dee. But having the tools and skills to have really meaningful conversations with Jono that actually make progress toward their shared vision for their family is just as important. After the conversation ended, she didn't think she talked enough about that aspect of it. So we turn the camera back on for a bit and she explained her thoughts and I edited that part into the episode.

Jen Lumanlan: 04:22

So Dee and Jono, we're still working to find the balance of enough connection with Dee for Ru that doesn't sacrifice all of Dee's time and energy, so there's none left for Jono. It's a work in progress, but they're actively working on it in a way that's connecting rather than disconnecting because they can don't keep having the same fight over and over again. And I hope that if you see you and your partner in Dee and Jono, and that you're focused on the children has led to a disconnection that you're able to potentially rebuild that bridge a bit. Or if your children are still young, maybe strengthen the bridge a bit before it gets too decrepit. We didn't know when we recorded the conversation we were going to talk so much about Jono so Dee did check in with him afterward. And he said he was comfortable with what she shared here. I know this is a sample size of one. And we can't say that all children raised in this way will have good outcomes. But I have yet to meet a parent whose own parent tried to shape them in some way and who reported that experience was a really positive factor in their lives. In fact, the judgments and the shame that our parents pass on to us often eventually gets transformed into our own voice saying these things. So it's no longer society giving us these messages that were too big and too loud and too emotional and not organized enough and will never succeed if we don't try harder through our parents, but we're telling ourselves these things. So we don't when we don't pass on these social messages to our children, and instead, we accept them, even when we would have been punished for showing up in the world in the way that they do, we're much more likely to raise a child who can say, "Yeah, I have a hard time with some things, but I know I'm okay. And I'm worthy of help and respect and love." I want that for my child, and for your children as well. So let's hear from Dee.

Jen Lumanlan: 06:04

Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. And today, we are here with a very special parent Dee, who has had some life experiences, I would say that are different than many of the parents who appear on the show. And so we're gonna talk a little bit about those and about how they show up in her parenting today. So welcome, Dee, it's so great to have you here.

Dee: 06:23

Thank you very much for having me.

Jen Lumanlan: 06:25

So maybe you could start out by just telling us a little bit about who you are, and how would you describe yourself?

Dee: 06:31

Okay, I'm Dee, I am 42. So I'm an older parent. My child is five, Just turned five. I would describe myself as pretty easygoing, and casual. I enjoy reading a lot. And that's been something that I've noticed has been a bit harder to do since I've, since I've been a parent, that's something that I miss. And I particularly like reading outside, so my partner's very outdoorsy, and often makes fun of me, because we go to all of these exciting places and I would like to just read a book, which I love doing in those places. I went to university in New Zealand, primary school in New Zealand, high school in America, University in New Zealand, and then a master's in Australia. We I met my partner in Australia at university, I'm sorry, I met my partner in New Zealand, at university first time around. And then together, we moved to Australia, where where I did my master's. We worked there for about 15 years, and we worked really long hours and the idea was always that we would retire, which is, you know, the plan then was retire, but now when we retired, you know, 30 something, we're like, Well, that might be a little bit unrealistic. So probably we'll go back to work one day, but we're going to take off as much time as we can muster to just travel. And we decided to have a child late. For a long time, we thought that we were had too many things that we wanted to do. And just so maybe we couldn't see how we would fit a child in there. So then we decided that we would have one child. And that we would do that once we had stopped working and we're traveling. So we did that. And we sailed around Australia. We bought a boat, sailed around Australia for a while, had Ru on the journey and in a hospital. But while we still lived on the boat, I'm glad it was in the hospital because he was an emergency scenario. I'm not sure how that goes on a boat. And then when he was three months old, we left Australia and sailed to the Pacific. And we sailed to New Zealand when he was about one with the intention of just visiting and keeping sailing. And COVID happened so we bought some land and put a house on it. And we've stayed here ever since me and my mother, which is wonderful. And my dad was in New Zealand part time. And so that's great, too. All of our family is here. Yes, I mean, that sort of seems like a summary. I'm not sure if I've missed integral information.

Jen Lumanlan: 09:17

No worries. I'm sure it will come up if we have. So I am super curious to hear more about your relationship with your mom.

Dee: 09:24

Yeah, um, my mom and I have a great relationship. She has always been a fantastic role model. She's a very kind and loving person, and extremely supportive of me as a parent. It actually makes me I always feel a bit sad talking about it because I know there are lots of people who don't have a supportive parent. And so when I was young, both of my parents were great. My dad worked a lot so we saw you know, my mom was a stay at home mom until I went to school and then she worked as a kindergarten teacher at the school that I was at which I loved. We went to Steiner School. And that was great, too. I really enjoyed school, I didn't feel that there was any pressure. And in fact, I think there is a bit of the opposite of pressure in standard schools vary, but it may may be the opposite of pressure, because my sister didn't learn to read, til she was nine, at which point everyone was a little bit like, wonder if we should be doing more about that, when she just wasn't interested. And these days, she's a lawyer, and it hasn't done her any harm to have the late to have the late reading skills. And she also loves to read. So mom was also as well as being very kind and caring and attentive. And both my sister and I feel very accepted for who we are by our parents. Mom was also really adventurous. And she was the New Zealand motocross champion, which is the type of dirt bike riding when we were little. And she raced cars, and she built houses. And she's built all of the houses that she lives in since I was young. She's a sustainable housing architect. So she designs them and then she has a builder coming to help her but she is the builders assistant.

Jen Lumanlan: 11:10

You you said a little you dropped a little nugget in there, right? You said she accepted us for who we are. Like, what do you mean by that? What was it like? What did she do that made you know, I am accepted and loved for who I am?

Dee: 11:25

I probably couldn't have told you that before joining this membership. And I because what I what I think that she did is very much saw our behavior as an expression of needs. And, and also saw all the various aspects of our personalities as having, you know, pros and cons, and definitely, you know, obviously found us frustrating at times, but that never felt like it was a problem with us. It never felt like it was a problem with us personally. It always either felt I you know, the the thought the thought for me now is that it would seem that either the situation was particularly frustrating, or our opinion or thoughts or actions about something were particularly frustrating, but not not us as people. And yeah, she she didn't get she I don't remember her ever being mad. I remember her being sad and frustrated. And I actually do remember her being mad at my dad. So I know it's rare. Yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 12:39

Okay. And the reason I'm curious about this, right is the vast majority of parents, with whom I have these kinds of conversations had a difficult relationship with one or both of their parents. And then that that process kind of hurt them in some way, right? The that we are always putting these messages out into the world: "Am I lovable?", when we're looking to get the message reflected back of, "Yes, I am lovable." And many of us did not get that reflection back. And you did. And I think that a lot of parents who are listening to this might be thinking, Yeah, you know, you know, this unconditional love stuff sounds great. But the world is a cold, hard place. And I am worried that if I don't toughen my child up, then they're gonna get hurt when they go out. And what I see instead is that our parents who you know, not not your mom, my parents and other listeners, parents, who really wanted the best for us, kind of went through this process of this toughening and that that process itself hurt us because we didn't get this message back that we are lovable, that you did get back. And so for those those who people who are listening, who are thinking, what must it be like to know that you are fundamentally Okay, right, that you are okay, and that you are lovable as a person? I don't even know if it's possible for you to help us understand that. What is it like to be Dee and to know that fundamentally, you are a whole complete, lovable human being just as you are?

Dee: 14:12

Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't know if I can answer that thoroughly. But I guess a couple of things come to mind that I've also learned through the membership. And the first would be that I don't, I don't seem to have a critical inner voice. I do. You know, I do stupid stuff all the time. I once drove an extra two hours to an appointment quite recently, because I thought it was in the city near us, but it turns out, it was just in the town next to us. And so, you know, our whole day was a bit thrown out by the fact that all of a sudden it was an hour till the appointment and I was an hour away and and, you know, I talked to him about it. And I'm like, oh, gosh, that was silly. You know, it was really I should have read the instructions or whatever, but I'm not. I'm not self-critical, Just as a mistake. It doesn't you know, I don't mind that because then he can see that people make mistakes. And, you know, we made a day of it, and it was fine. And we both enjoyed the trip. And I guess I see other you know, I have friends, I have a really dear friend that sometimes she will say things like, I just kind of think of an exact phrase that's really stuck out to me isn't like, wow. I guess there's the other part that I've thought of through the membership, which is this idea of needs. And I've never thought that if I had a need, that I wasn't, I wasn't worthy of getting it met, I'm not sure if that's the right wording or, yeah, I mean, it always seems like if I have a need, I should have some it's an interpersonal one and I should absolutely, I feel fine asking other people. And I also feel fine if they, they say "no." And you know, that's, that's hard. But then I but then that acceptance does feel like it falls with me to ask someone else or it doesn't feel anything, anything wrong with me that they would say I want to say "no," just yeah, that they're not in a position right then and there to do what I asked.

Dee: 16:06

And the third thing is that when I see people that are struggling, especially people that are doing things that are detrimental to other people, I see that I see the struggle not, I don't think there are any bad people. So I think that to me ties into the the idea of, you know, like the school of hard knocks kind of thing. And I don't think that I don't think we should teach kids back because to me, that teaches them that those things are inevitable, rather than I see most of those things as being systemic and things that we should be working to change.

Jen Lumanlan: 16:48

Yeah, yep, I'm 100% with you. And it's rare and amazing to meet somebody of our age, who has experienced that for themselves, and who can kind of live it right and to has been accepted for who they truly are. And, and know that that they are lovable because of their flaws in spite of their flaws, right, as a as a whole human being. And so, so now, right now, I'm I'm curious, most parents who join the Parenting Membership join because they looked at their relationship with their own parents. And I think well, I know, I don't want to do that. And also, I don't know what to do. So I need some help with that you didn't have that thing to point to right? You didn't you didn't have that thing that you're kind of moving away from as fast as possible. So why did you join? What was the thought process there?

Dee: 17:40

Well, there is an element of that, or they're not moving away so much from what from what I had. But I got the notion in my head early on, that simply running on instinct might not be the best way to go. So and I got that just from reading and the amount of people that said, basically, you just repeat the cycles. I didn't realize at that time, that what I would learn would be so aligned with the way that I was raised. And I didn't, yeah, so I didn't necessarily want to just simply repeat what happened, what how it was for me without knowing that that was the way I actually wanted to do it. And I also wanted to be aware, I felt that I had the time, I thought that I had the time and the energy to parent really, really intentionally. And I wanted to make sure what the intention was, you know, not just kind of autopilot. I didn't I wasn't a very maternal person before having a child. I didn't spend a lot of time around children. I wasn't particularly interested in children. I moved out of home when my youngest oh, my third, number three and five was a baby. And so I didn't actually spend any time with with her as a baby. Yeah, so it was really, I was kind of thinking that if I didn't do something to be more intentional that I was just going to run on autopilot and veen but probably, that was what that was what got me reading and got me curious and got me researching. And then what really what got me into the membership was one I did the limits and boundaries workshop and loved it. And two, I just didn't feel like I was balancing our family's needs very well at all. I I thought that I could be a fantastic mother and nurturer and, you know, kind of like what I said before I felt like I had the time and the energy to do it really intentionally, and yet it took all of my time and Jono felt left out and you know, he wanted to he, he spent a lot of time with through as well. He also didn't work when Ru was born through till after one, and then just worked part time. So he also had time. But he didn't need it to be done to the degree I did, and thought that I could let go a little, I think. And still to this day, that's a bit of a thing for us, because I don't know how to let go a little without pushing away.

Jen Lumanlan: 20:31

Yeah, okay. So let's, let's slow this down. Because I remember, I mean, it was almost two years ago now, right. And you've, you've been on the vast majority of the group coaching calls that we've had in that time. I remember one of those early calls where you were, I think you were in a bedroom, and you had gotten a few minutes to yourself to attend this call because somebody else was with Ru. And you were talking about how you wanted to occasionally call a friend. And that you were not able to do that, because you couldn't get a break to be able to, like, spend a few minutes on the phone with a friend. What else is there around my two year old recollection of the story that is more like alive for you.

Dee: 21:19

So at the time I what I remember about about that situation, we were on holiday visiting my sister house looking at her neighbors. And what I really wanted was for Jono to be able to fill in for me a bit more, I wanted to be able to step away a little bit, but I didn't want me to be a gap. And so I wanted Jono to fill that gap. And it was hard because it was hard for Ru for there to the absence of me. And so often he was less than his best at those times. And Jono found that triggering. And so, you know, would kind of for them sort of spiral down, and then Ru would just want me and it felt tricky. It felt really tricky. I'm sure a lot has changed. I don't know if I should yeah,

Jen Lumanlan: 22:17

Maybe we can kind of draw the process of what that change was like, right? What what were some of the major shifts that you saw along that path?

Dee: 22:26

Firstly, I think a lot a lot of it has had to do with his age. And has he has been able to be you know, that's sort of like its own packet. But I want to acknowledge that because I don't think it's all me or all Jono. I was a late bloomer. I don't know if that's a thing with little kids. And I mean, Ru was breastfed to almost four. So I think that that also meant that there was sort of like a natural amount of stickiness there too. So what has changed? Yeah, I mean, there's been lots of things. I one of the big ones was that not expecting genre Jono to fill the gap, that if I wanted a space, then it's been Ru and I, negotiated that. And that Ru was being able to talk to Jono, if that was his choice to do so. And I would say that it hasn't been entirely reliable, although we're definitely getting there now. Like now it's now it's so so so much better than then where I can say that I want five minutes, I want 10 minutes or do a call like this one. And we've found strategies that work for both of us.

Jen Lumanlan: 23:53

Yeah. And I saw you make a big shift. I want to say a year or so ago, when we were doing the I think it was probably the deep dive into problem solving calls. And we were learning about sort of language that's more or less coercive, right in terms of when we're asking our children to do things. We can start with a you know, go do it now. And the there's sort of this gradation of phrases that we can use. And one of the more one of the phrases that allows for a greatest degree of agency is the phrase would you be willing to would you be willing to help me put your toys away? Can you tell us what you did with that?

Dee: 24:35

Yes, and I think that was probably you're right that did feel like it felt I thought that was a big shift as well because I was getting to the point where that constant negotiation to find something that met both of our needs, and often having this idea that I was deferring my needs I was scared, I was worried catastrophizing that that my child was going to be entitled that they were going to think that that other people weren't as important. And it was really hard for me to split this out in to make it history, you know, they don't have a very good concept of other people they're not, you know, they're not inherently empathetic, empathetic. And you know, some kids, some kids definitely seem to have more of that, just seem to be more aware of what other people are thinking and feeling at that age that really was. And it's really just coming online now, where, you know, we had an incident last night where I wanted to get in the back, and he didn't want to go back. And afterwards, he, I had said, you know, that really didn't, the whole situation kind of didn't meet my need for rest and relaxation. I've been chopping wood, wood with hard work. And he was lying in bed, and he's like, Oh, that really didn't meet your need. And I was like, "No," so he's, you know, and he was, he was sad about that. And he, it was almost like, he repaired with me. But yeah, back at that time, being able to turn it into what I'd be willing. I don't know if this is, I don't know if this is right but you know, it kind of felt like it gave me the power back. Like, it just gave me my own, I was able to be like, where would I be? It comes up all the time. He's like, you know, and often it comes out with things like, put ice in my bottle. Okay, what I'd be willing to put ice in your bottle right now. And then as soon as I freeze it, I'm like, yeah, actually, I would I yeah, that's totally fine. And he hears that rephrase. And I don't need to say it's the tone, or, you know, I need a different language, because that's not really, you know, like, it's, that's my thing. And, yeah. So it comes up a lot.

Jen Lumanlan: 27:03

Yeah. Yeah. And so what I'm hearing you doing is you're kind of verbally articulating that process of let me understand kind of, you know, in a short way, what my needs are, right? Do I have a need for rest and ease right now? And if so, I'm, am I willing to go and put ice in your bottle? Maybe the answer to that is "no." And I'm gonna say that. Or if I'm already standing up and your bottle is right there, and I was going to the fridge anyway and my need for rest and ease and whatever else is going on right now is not overwhelming, then yes, I actually am perfectly willing to go and get ice in your bottle like because doing that doesn't block me from meeting my need. Right? And I don't I there's no reason for me to negotiate with you over this, because I can see that doing this helps you meet your need. And it doesn't block me from meeting mine. And so what you're what you're doing is you're allowing yourself that space to process for a few seconds. Does this does this block me from meeting a need? Does it help me to meet my need for connection with you for collaboration with you? And when you do that, you're then able to put a boundary in place, if you find that it would help you or you can, you know, try a strategy to meet both of your needs. And my guess my hypothesis would be that you probably don't feel super frustrated, angry, resentful very much of the time, right? Because, yeah, because because that there's the frustration that anger, resentment, other red flags for the unmet needs. And so you're not getting to that point, because you're allowing yourself to process what are my needs? And does doing this thing helped me to meet my need, or at the very least not blocked me from eating it? So what is it like to be in that space?

Dee: 28:42

And I would say that, that that's, that sums it up really well. And there's a couple of extra things that I think it does for me in that I think one of the sort of one of the things that comes up for me a bit is because of the way that Ru and I have been for the last five years. He has quite a high expectation that I will help. And so it also enables me to make the point I think that what he is asking is a request, that he has a need, and that he would like my help to meet it. And so I'm giving him lots of positive reinforcement. I don't know if that's really the way I want to say actually. I'm giving him positive examples of I can ask for help to meet my need and and that'll be received and somebody will help me. And also there are situations like last night, Ru asked me to go to the bathroom with him. I was already in bed. And he asked me to get up with him to go to the toilet. And I said: Would I be willing to get up and go to the toilet with you? And I said I'm actually there. It is pretty comfy in here. Do you think that you could possibly go by yourself and then come and climb in for a cuddle? And he said, "Yes." That was wonderful. And probably I would have, if you'd said, No, I really can't, I would have probably, you know, it was okay, I could get up. I didn't really have to stay in bed. But, but I did enjoy that. Now, it also works both ways. I'm not sure that we would have gone it both ways, without a bit more of a tussle, you know, two years ago. But yeah, now he's also able to consider and think does it meet my need to go by myself? Am I worried? Or 'cause sometimes he is worried? Yeah. So yes, it feels good. Yeah,

Jen Lumanlan: 30:39

Yeah. And so if he is feeling worried, and he has a need for, like, I don't know, emotional safety, right? So something related to that, of course, you're willing to help him meet that need, right? You're not just arbitrarily saying: No, my rule is that once I'm in bed, I don't go to the bathroom with you. That it would be nice for you if you didn't get out of bed, but you're willing to do it if he has a big need that that he can articulate to you and they and he can do that. And if he finds that he doesn't have a big need, it was just more of a yeah, it'd be nice to have a go with me, then. And he's capable of doing it by himself, then you know, that's a different strategy to meet both of your needs. So yeah, so that's, that's really lovely. And I want to shift gears a little bit, I mentioned already that you attend, the vast majority of the coaching calls is like a reliable indicator that I'm on the right call at the right time is when you're there. And I wonder if you could tell us a bit about your experience, because I know that folks who don't have experience of being on group calls, I mean, when they join the membership, they feel kind of nervous about joining the first call before they're even joined, when they're thinking about it. They're like: I don't know how much I would get out of this, because it's just like me and a whole bunch of other parents. And if I'm not talking about my struggles, is this going to be useful? So I wonder if you can just share what it's like with us from your perspective to be on one of these calls.

Dee: 32:00

I get a lot out of the calls, which is like, why I try to attend? The main thing I think I get is I is watching you speak to everybody about the just enormous array of different things. And there is like method, and process and tools, that that for me, are quite universal. And so I just get to see how I mean, I don't want to simplify too much. But I just get to see all of the, you know, the morass of different ways that, that get into the to, back to basics of just trying to understand what's happening for each of the people, the parent and the child equally. Because I know, a lot of the times for myself, it's really understanding my need to, you know, like, what does my kid need? And then what do I need? Yeah, really, just getting back to that, in so many different examples, is supremely helpful. And I also get a massive sense of relief from the kind of like the me too, you know, that I'm not the only one struggling that I'm not the only one that that finds it hard to balance themselves and their child and the other people involved in the family. Yeah, that's, that's fantastic. And very often somebody has a really similar thing to whatever it is, I'm dealing with either now, or in the past, where I'm like, oh, yeah, that, you know, that was bad. That was them, and look how far we've come, which is also really helpful. And also things that I see. And then it happens to us later, and I have so much more confidence to see, but this is part of it. You know, that? I guess that path has a lot of that that piece is the developmentally appropriate piece. And I've got so much of that from my ACTion group, just people having kids that have been my child's age. Like, yes, that was a thing. and other parents were I mean, they're on the calls as well on where other parents have kids that are either bad age or, or older that are having this sort of like universal issue, or at least really common doesn't have to be.

Jen Lumanlan: 34:40

Yeah, so the ACTion groups are a group of five pair up to five parents plus a peer coach. And so you mentioned that it helps you because you can sort of get ideas for what's coming and be a little more prepared for that. What what else do you get from being an ACTion group?

Dee: 34:59

The ACTion group my ACTion group is wonderful. I get something out of each and every member because they're all so different. And luckily, there is quite a few of us that have at least a child, the other similar age, and then people have them that are older and younger as well. One, one of our members has five, which I'm just like mind-blowing. And there's another one with three. So I'm also a little bit mind-blown by that. Yeah, and so I guess a lot of that does come down to the, yes, my kid is born doing that, too. And how can we kind of brainstorm ways around, you know, to understand those behaviors better and to find things that work for us in terms of seeing it through. And then with some of the, the parents with older children, just bear confirmation that that will pass. If it's something you know, quite hard to deal with in the moment, like kids hitting other kids or, you know, being disruptive or not saying that those behaviors go away entirely, but they seem to be both clear. And the other thing that I really get out of the ACTion group is sort of like a focused attention on something that I'm trying to tackle. And we talk about what it might be for the next week that we'd like to work on. And often it follows on from the week before. And we extend our individual goals for the following week, and then discuss those. And and that really helps me to kind of if I have something pressing that's going on helps me to be intentional.

Jen Lumanlan: 36:46

Okay. And I know that you are also among a group of folks who get in touch with each other on other issues as well, right, we did a module on Healing Shame in Community a little while ago. And we one of the things I love to do in the membership is to kind of peel back the veneer of expertise as it were, it's so that I'm not the only person who holds the "expertise." And that we can, I mean, these are all learnable skills, and we can all have them. And then we can support each other in doing these things. And so we did a module on Healing Shame in Community. And we learned how to use these tools. And then you and another member formed a little partnership to support each other. And I was so curious about your relationship with shame and what you actually talk about on those calls. So I wonder if you could tell us just about your experience, rather than your partner's experience, on on what has shifted from you as a result of of doing those calls.

Dee: 37:42

I don't know if I feel shame. I spoken I've spoken quite a lot about this with my shame buddy. And we've tried to sort of untangle shame for me a bit to try and work out whether the feelings that I have which I could possibly more accurately describe as guilt, embarrassment, and a fear of being incompetent or looking incompetent, so judgment and fear of judgment seem to better summarize for me how I feel rather than myself worth being affected.

Jen Lumanlan: 38:21

And we think back to where did that come from? Right. From your relationship with your parents? I mean, yeah, right. If we can imagine today ourselves have been close our eyes, I think, what would it like be like to not feel shame? And then what kinds of things could I do to raise a child who maybe doesn't feel shame? Right? And that unconditional acceptance, I think is is really huge. And that doesn't mean that you don't struggle and it doesn't mean that right, you don't feel guilt and embarrassment and all of these other things. But it just means that fundamentally at the root of it, you know, that there's nothing wrong with you. So yeah, I thank you for for joining that connection. So you are still feeling some of these things that that you found it worth exploring in these columns. Can you can you tell us about that?

Dee: 39:07

Yeah, absolutely. So the so the, the big one for me is still is the same big one where I don't think that I very effectively parent and have an emotional, what's that called? What kind of I can't even tell you the name of the relationship that you have with your... romantic romantic relationship? Here we go. Yeah. Okay. So like this romance. Um, so, yeah, that I I, and that makes and I feel incompetent. You know, I, I always you know, probably a good you know, how you save quite a few times that people are looking for, is it the magic bullet? Or is that the terms that the term they use? Yeah, so it's like that, it's like, I feel that if I just had the right information or could analyze it or think about it in a different way, I would be able to be better at balancing those things that it wouldn't feel like one person or the other had to not feel seen. And so I mean, I get a huge amount out of being able to explore that from every angle and come up with lots of different ways that I can be better. I don't know if that's the right thing to say either that I can be better at those things, having voice than you know, the two most important people in my life, feel that they are seen by me.

Jen Lumanlan: 40:50

Can you give us a specific example of something that you hadn't I didn't know you hadn't realized was a thing before you discovered it through these calls? Or you found a different way of looking at it?

Dee: 41:00

One of the one of the things that came up recently, when I was speaking on the Shame call was that I was hearing some resentment for doing a lot of housework. And at the same time, I was really struggling to understand why I was feeling resentful, because it really felt like a choice. It really seemed like a choice. My partner is incredibly practical. And he's an engineer, he builds anything. And so his skills seem so well utilized in other areas. And you know, I mean, he cooks, he cleans, he does do those things. It's just that often, he'll be busy doing something that both of us see is more important, and that I can't do without his help. And so I was feeling this resentment. And I mean, Jono asked me the question when we were doing like the Gottman practice together, five appreciations and then Marshall Rosenberg question of what can I do this week to make your life more wonderful. And he asked me, "What motivated me out of bed?" And I was a standard and, and then felt really defensive. And then wondered, you know what, and because of the Shame calls and the Shame module, and the Gottman module, I really recognize this as maybe there's something I need to only hear where's this coming from. And I spoke with my buddy about it a lot. And realized that a fair amount of it came from choosing to do the housework, because it was something that I can easily do with Ru. And we put her around and when he needs something, then I can do I don't mind that being interrupted. I don't care at all. And if he wants it done faster, then I say that he's welcome to join me and sometimes he doesn't, that feels good. And, and it's a way of, of being busy and being maybe not being busy as contributing to our household that I guess I felt was valued. I thought was valued until that question. And then I realized that I didn't really value it, that the what was feeling defensive for me was that one, I thought that Jono was saying that he didn't really value it, but two, I thought that he was saying, "And do you value it?" doesn't really make you want to, you know, go seize the day kind of thing and it doesn't. And so we had an Active Listening call, which I attended. And, and CG and Denise and another member Jane helped me work through that, but to kind of get to the nitty gritty. I mean, for that call, we're practicing active listening. And so it wasn't really to try and work out the problem. It was just, you know, me articulating it over and over and over again and kind of got me got me to where and what, what I spoke a lot about with my I'm gonna call I'm gonna call her my shame, buddy. What I spent a lot with about my shame, buddy, and where everything really shifted, for me was about my my temperament and my personality and the way that I manage being a mother, and, and all of those things, and my shame buddy, just made this little suggestion. And do you think you might be sensitive, and it was like his massive light bulb? Which I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sensitive. And so as my so as my mother, by the way. I was like, Yes, I mean, I If I see somebody that's down and out, just just want to cry, you know,

Jen Lumanlan: 45:07

I mean, we saw it earlier. Right? You're tearing up anything about parents who don't get validation from their own parents?

Dee: 45:13

It seems so obvious, right? Why is this not just been a standard part, but I, but I think I'm also very, no, I don't know. And I'll leave that.

Jen Lumanlan: 45:22

But how did that help knowing that?

Dee: 45:26

Well, that nugget was just like, this is why this is why I want to see the root. You know, when I see that he wants to be safe. It's just all over him, you know, I can, and I can't really turn away, you know, so. So it means it also means that I want to help, like, there's a lot of empathy. When I, when I see that I can imagine what it's like to want to be seen and how good it feels when somebody can reciprocate that. And so I really, genuinely want to help. And, and then I was like, Oh, my gosh, and so I've just helped this whole time. And so where I thought before, that maybe it was his temperament that maybe he was kind to see me for help. And that he, you know, there was something in him that made him need help. I was like, Oh, my gosh, I just always helped. So of course, I would be the go to person. Of course, he would come and ask me, "Why would you, why would you not?" And other people answers reliable for all kinds of reasons, you know, like, so yeah, that was a real massive change. And then it also fit into what I was thinking about the housework in the sense that when I sit down and try to do some work, and RU comes in, swings on my office chair, and I start to feel frustrated. I don't want to feel that frustration. I don't want to be annoyed at my child. I don't want us to have this sort of like negative feedback. And so I would rather just go and do something else that we can do together, that also meets my need for contribution. And so it was really talking through all this and being like, but the house doesn't meet my need for achievement. So being you know, and working does, and you know, doing other project-orientated, outcome-driven task does, and putting in a washing machine and then hanging it out and then folding it and putting it away, and then doing it again every week, just simply does not. And I think the reason that really drove it home was when it was obvious to Jono, that it also didn't really tick his boxes either. And I was like, well, then what is the why why would I do it? And and another part that kind of tied in from the Gottman from the Gottman tools was that when Jono and I did the coaching call with you to discuss our Dreams Within Conflict, and we came out the other end of that saying that it wasn't that I needed to have necessarily more time, separate, but that I that Jono and I needed to prioritize our connection time more. And so I've done even less work over the last couple of weeks, months, months, because it was really carving out time for us. And so all of those things really kind of compounded to get me to this to this point. And all the calls like if I hadn't had people to talk to and really read try and work through it and figure it out why is this suddenly such a thing for me? I don't think I think I would still just maybe think that everyone else wasn't doing enough.

Jen Lumanlan: 48:47

Alright, so I want to ask you a couple of more things about the or maybe a couple of observations actually about the Gottman coaching call it we did. But firstly, I'm super curious. Are you wearing last week's clothes? Did you run out of players? Yeah, like how is the laundry getting done?

Dee: 49:00

Well, we also had a power cut. And, and a plumbing issue. So we've been running an extension cord through the house for various different reasons. So it wasn't practical to do laundry this week. Anyway, um, but also we do have enough clothes that we I am wearing a clean I am wearing clean clothes today. As it's Ru, but I mean Ru was partially because he got given a birthday suit so he's just wants to wear that anyway, so that's a you know, a stroke of luck. That'll be that'll be us for the next week. And Jono is usually working outside and doesn't mind wearing the same clothes over and over again. But it was kind of funny because none of this stuff has been done. I just dropped the house which I also did when I was doing my masters and Jono was getting ready for work once because I was working full time as well. And neither of us realized at that point that I did all the laundry. And then I was like I'm just not going to do any housework for these two weeks while Iwas writing thesis. And then all of a sudden Jono was like storming around one morning when we're getting ready for work, is that close? And I was like, "Well, did you washing me? He's like, "No." And that was an amazing thing to happen to us, you know, five years into our relationship. It was just like, the best because he was like, Oh my gosh, we have to do laundry right every week. So that's been something that we often look back on. So this time, we were having a sparky come over this morning, And the house is just like totally topsy turvy. And there's stuff everywhere. And, and I just kind of got to say, well, this is sort of what happens because he was saying, you know, don't do it unless you bring it brings you joy. And, and I was saying maybe we could do like a roster or something so that everything gets done, because that's how we do me off. And, and he was like, oh, that sounds too draconian. You know, sounds like structure. And then this morning, when the stock he was going to carve is going to be trying to get in, And they're gonna have to climb over, you know, our various messes. He was going to clean the house up. And it was just kind of good, because we could both see that without it being done all the time. It really does get out of hand quite quickly. And maybe we will, And you know, put in a schedule where it's one person's job to do each thing each day And for Howard. But yeah, it's been great for Jono and I to just to be able to have these conversations. Something my Shame buddy and I have discussed quite a lot is the idea that talking to someone else takes out the the pressure. Yes. But the other person, like if I was to talk through all of this with Jono, he would also been be feeling defensive about all the things that have something to do with him before I'd really got it straight in my head. What I wanted to own this is what I would like some what I would like from him. And when Jono and I tried to, like toss it out together, two things happen. One, it can be overwhelming, I think for Jono, to hear my entire thought process, like just like I'm loaded on him. So it's also really good for us that I can kind of get through a lot of it, and then give him the nuggets of wisdom that I have found from that. And yeah, yeah, so that's so that's been great. So Jono has been pasty so the whole ideas that I've been working through, but in much more sort of concentrated bites. And yeah, which is good. So the message this morning was good. Okay, and going out, so that wasn't an option.

Jen Lumanlan: 52:43

Nice. And so one theme that I'm picking out throughout this right is that the Jono sees your needs in some ways more clearly than you see them yourself. And he's a really fierce advocate for you meeting your needs. And I think that that really came through in the Gottman coaching call that we did. And you and Jono, were kind enough to allow me to use that as a demo video. So folks who are coming in to the membership and who we're going to be doing this module are going to be able to see how Dee and Jono works through a conversation they've had over and over and over again about whether or not Ru should go to kindergarten. And it the impression I got when we started was well, I know his position. He knows my position. Where are we going to go with this? And what it seemed as though happened as a result of that, if going through that process was: Oh, his position is actually different what I really than what I realized. And can can you tell us just a little bit about how that played out for you?

Dee: 53:43

Yeah, and sometimes I think that Jono and other people think I need more than I do. And usually, usually I think they're right, but maybe it's not as pressing as it would appear. I also have this habit of making everything look hard. You should see me chocolate.

Dee: 54:13

So, so I yeah, I mean, I think he definitely does see my needs and and in a way helps me see that that even if they're not as pressing, they're still worthwhile, you know, getting in there, and I really appreciate that. But that, especially, especially now is getting a bit older and a bit you know, more capable of understanding my needs as well. And finding that I have space to kind of focus in areas that that would really meet more of my needs in a way that feels really good to me. And now instead Jono and I are focusing on that being our connection time where we do a task a project together that meets my need for achievement. We put a roof on it, which had yesterday. And I think that meets both of our needs a lot better than me singularly trying to meet my need for need for achievement by working in that time. But it does mean that I then have to carve out that work time somewhere else, which is working to after reading the Mom Rage first three chapters only, I am practice and speaking about this with my ACTion group, practicing interruption and refocusing my attention, because if I think of it as a practice, then when it when the interruption is part of the practice, to be interrupted, and to be okay with that, and to refocus, which isn't as efficient, as you know, not being interrupted at all. But it's something that Ru and I can work on together in has been really successful for me, because he's out understanding this idea that I want, there is a need on the list, which is like mind when I started as I guess that's mind, not mind autonomy, like mental space, maybe, like choosing where I put my attention. And so that that is a big one that I've noticed coming up coming up lately. And so yeah, we've been working on that together.

Jen Lumanlan: 56:29

Yeah, which is a massive shift, right? Because going into that conversation, it seemed as though the thing we were going to talk about was that Jono wanted for Ru to go to kindergarten, and you didn't want to him to because that was going to be too difficult, the separation was going to be too hard. And it's like there's there's no flexibility here, right. And now we find actually, because we understand all of the hopes and the dreams and what's really, really, really true for each of us. There was a way more flexibility in Jono's position than we had thought, right? That actually he is if he is seeing progress towards independence, and if he's getting connection time with you, and he's if he's seeing you meet your other needs, then that works for Jono, right. This is not an all-or-nothing that it seemed in the beginning. And that I think is massive, because now you're actually you've you've taken that piece of information, and you've devised all these different strategies to get help, to spend time with him, to do all these different things that allow you to meet each of your needs, which is really beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome.

Dee: 57:31

And another fantastic community suggestion was that I looked for a parents helper. And so I also did that and found one, and we started last week and that was really great. And that's another thing that I'm putting some of my work time in there, which is good, because they always know where to find me. And they both seem comfortable with that, that's ruin the parents. Yeah, yeah. So. So that's another way that we're working on that, that time can I do want to, in many ways, in your, the way that I was parented. I think it was a struggle for my mother and for me to effectively balance for me to effectively balance my partner and from my mom's objectively balanced her relationship with my father. And they did get divorced when, when I was 11 or so. And I wouldn't you know, it in talking to my mother and my father, but that primarily my, my mother about it, she really did feel like she put a lot into us. And she and some of that was maybe a struggle for her in the long term, and that it didn't necessarily bring her and my dad closer together. And I would say that that's the same for Jono and I, at least in the early years, when it was when it was a lot harder for me. I wanted really wanted to put everything into into read and I could see his needs, and I really wanted to meet them. And my my mom tells me, I mean her she has been incredibly supportive through this process, which is obviously online, you know, that she sees all the hard work that I do and, and everything that I put into, and she's always told me that parenting is hard. And that balancing those needs is hard.

Dee: 59:27

So I went in with that expectation. What I didn't expect, I guess is how long you probably thought three years and then you know, they wouldn't, it would seriously taper off and and we are it is it is it is a gradual process which I tell Jono all the time. And but for Jono and I there have been periods where he has felt incredibly like a second fiddle and for him, there have been times when the amount to which I see Ru has almost seemed proportionate to what he doesn't get. And that's been really hard on him and on me, because then there's a lot of weight on me about not getting the balance, right. And yeah, so I guess maybe out of that, I guess it really is very, very important to make sure that as a mother, all of your needs are being met. And for me, part of those needs that I have neglected to some degree without even really realizing it, or being like, underlying, are you aware, but not quite sure how to fix is that interpersonal need of, of my romantic relationship. And being able to, which we can do now, you know, now, I now at win Ru has just turned five, I'm able to say to Ru, that, you know, Pepper and I want some connection time and, and we're able to carve that out, you know, when Ru's busy doing other things, and that sort of come with age where I think to avoid that scarring on Jono and I's relationship, that to say should isn't necessarily, right. I don't know if I would do it any differently again, but that seems to be the trade off, you know, when I feel like I've done things the way I wanted to do for my child, And my relationship has been second for four years.

Dee: 01:01:40

And anyone I should really ask is four years probably. And then, And then working through the being part of his membership, and really getting in touch with what I need, and being able to ask requests of other people and me passing on that information to Jono and because a big piece of that puzzle, which I think is also tied into the sort of like systematic issues is that it's been incredibly hard for him to say, you know, like to say I feel sick, I have a need for connection, that's not me, I you know, for him to say these things, has taken a lot of secondary absorption from the membership, I think. And also add to participation in the membership and seeing other people, you know, practicing those things and, and talking about it a lot. And with him having been able to say to me that that's what he was missing, even though underneath I always knew you know, him getting cranky at me because I wasn't living up to those expectations. Didn't bring me towards him. It didn't it just had me feeling stuck. Like I can't do both right. And so we're working through all of the this year of the membership together. And then also, the specifically the Gottman the Gottman tools and being able to sit down and talk to each other about those interpersonal needs. And how do we, I mean, you've said this so many times, and it's just taken a really long time for it to sink in for me. Like, how does that need feel met for you? Like my contribution example, I'm running around doing housework and he's like, "What are you doing that doesn't look that fun?" It doesn't mean my need for contribution. Go chop some wood? Yeah, so yeah. Yeah. He didn't tell me to chop the wood, though. But I could see that that was, you know, the type of contribution while he's out there slaving over chopping the wood. But that's actually what he sees his contribution, as opposed to these tasks that can just be done over and over. And so in talking to him about what meets our needs, and him being able to say, us doing the projects together, us, you know, working together, going to the lake during all those things is what helps him to feel seen. And yeah, so that's been that's, that's been really big part of the membership winnings to me as well as working with me and Ru.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:04:11

Yeah, yeah. So so for you, there was a lot of togetherness. And then there was a pretty wide sort of coming apartness as he became parents, and now there's a coming back together in this. And I wonder if parents who are listening to this, and who are really invested in their children, right, and who want to, to use these ideas and to be in a relationship with the children that truly sees their children, does it have to mean that our relationship with our partner wants to come apart so much, right? Is it possible that we can see our children for who they are, and it doesn't have to require every single moment of our energy and attention so that we do still have some some some energy and attention for a partner as well?

Dee: 01:04:50

Yes, yeah. And I think now that if I had understood myself better, if I had understood how sensitive that I would be to my child, I could have maybe verbalized that, and Jono and I could have been more on board with that, and had that notion in our minds that, that I'm going to be drawn, you know, to, to, to helping and to being that that person. Yeah, I think if I had known that more, I would have been able to step back a little bit and say, you know, like, Yes, this is hard for me. And he will be okay in saying that, though, I now know that and I still haven't like, you know, drawn myself back. So but I do think all of those all of those things, like, knowing those things about myself that I'm now knowing is what's allowing me to. So it's a membership in a nutshell, because every time I do a module, I'm like, oh, man, it's something for me to learn about myself. How did I not see that before? We need to do the whole thing before we have kids.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:06:15

Okay. So as we wrap up, I know we've been we've been starting this, this idea in the episodes where we're leaving parents with three things that they could try based on the conversations that we have. And so I wonder if you could kind of help us to outline what are some of the three? What are three shifts that you have had kind of organized roughly in order of difficulty, right, I'm starting with the three again, are curious and learning and growth. And we were calling them mild, medium, and spicy. And we're moving away from that. So what would you say is sort of the entry level curious type practice that you would recommend for someone who's dipping their toes into this?

Dee: 01:06:52

We haven't, we haven't necessarily done this as introductory. Although it started with Ru and I and Jono, but mostly we're gonna be practicing our feelings and needs and trying to trying to understand what they were and a big driver for that, for me came from seeing Ru hurt himself on the stairs and then running over and hitting a playmate. And this idea that wow, he just had like, a fearing I think his his need for safety maybe or maybe the feeling might have been embarrassment and to externalize that, instead of being able to say, "Oh, I felt embarrassed," or "Ouch that hurt," you know, I feel hurt. And maybe asking for a cuddle was sort of a moment for me. And then we'd already been doing the feelings and needs.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:07:49

And and also, we have a new resource available for parents, we have publicly available Your Parenting Mojo feelings and needs lists at YourParentingMojo.com/feelings and /needs. And in very soon, I think by the time this episode goes out, there will also be printable versions with faces on that you can show your kids so that they even pre-readers can point to a face and say, that's what's going on for me. So, um, so that's a resource to help there. And so as sort of level two, the learning stage, what would you say is a level two practice?

Dee: 01:08:23

I would say the practicing and community. And maybe that's as easy as doing the the coaching calls? Or if if people have more time, because I imagine there's lots of time constraints and those types of things, but finding someone to practice with we can really spend the time digging into areas where that you're curious about that.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:08:46

So why would you think it would be a good third level sort of growth idea that folks could try?

Dee: 01:08:53

So I recognize that I have a, you know, there's a considerable amount of privilege Aand being and having the time available to work on these things, and a partner that is interested to work on them too. And I think the grow at the group level, I would have found it incredibly helpful to use the Gottman tools to communicate. And especially, I mean, we're just working through it now. But the lower levels of the Gottman house and sharing our appreciations for each other seem to have really helped to set the stage I guess for more complicated discussions. Yeah. So I think that that would be a growth one.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:09:39

Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your journey with us and helping us to see how this is all played out for you and, and even kind of have a vision of what it might be like to raise a child who doesn't feel shame, right, who, who has a really solid sense of themselves and understanding of themselves and sense of rightness in themselves. It's It's such a privilege to work with you and to learn from you and with you. So thank you Dee.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:10:04

One thing that I saw from rewatching this conversation with Dee was how she has all of the elements of the ability to make sustainable change that we discussed in a recent episode on How to make the sustainable change you want to see. She clearly has a vision for how she wants to raise Ru. She's lucky that she had amazing parental role models but she didn't want to just follow those models blindly. She now knows where she wants to go. She's developing her communication skills so she can meet Ru's needs and now also Jono's needs after perhaps losing sight of Jono's needs for a while. At the same time, she can also articulate her own needs and make requests to get those needs met. She's highly motivated to do this work because she sees how far she's come already as well as the potential to have relationships that are really aligned with all of her family's needs and values. She does recognize the privilege, she has to have access to the resources that she needs to be able to be around her family and not engage in many hours of paid work. And she fully acknowledges that not everyone has this privilege.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:11:03

She also has the resources within our community to work on all aspects of her life and relationships that are important to her. She can increase her own self-understanding, meet her son's needs, communicate with her partner in a way that they can actually hear each other. She can see that Jono's need for connection with her has not been met over the last few years. And now she has both the insight and the tools to really hear his struggles and move toward meeting his needs as well as her own. Her weekly ACTion group meetings helped to make these big changes she wants to make manageable, because she can create a next step for this week and do just that. And if she doesn't take the next step, she'll get help understanding why it didn't happen, and how to break it down even more instead of just throwing in the towel and giving up which does not help us to move in the direction of our values.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:11:50

You might notice that I know Dee's situation pretty well. And honestly, that isn't super unusual for me. When you join the Parenting Membership if you show up in the community, then I show up for you as well. Not everyone wants to join every call or write lengthy missives in a community, I get that. We do have people who watch the call recordings and who never post anything in the community. They interact with the membership primarily through modules and through being in an ACTion group. And if they get what they need in that way, that's totally fine with me.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:12:20

But when you do show up in the community, I am there for you. I get to know you and your challenges and your successes, and that means I can offer you customized support. You won't just see me on one way broadcasts. I'll coach you live just like I've worked with Dee and also with Jono on our group coaching calls. If you've wished that parenting was easier than it is right now, and that your relationship with your partner was more fulfilling and nourishing for both of you than it is right now, and that you understood how to get your needs met and also meet your child's needs much more often than those things happen right now, then I do hope you'll join me in the Parenting Membership. Enrollment's open between May 5th and 15th, which is our only opening for the next year. Learn more about their membership and join up at YourParentingMojo.com/parentingmembership.

Denise: 01:13:13

I'm a Your Parenting Mojo fan, and I hope you enjoy the show as much as I do. If you found this episode especially enlightening or useful, you can donate to help Jen produce more content like this. Just go to the episode page that Jen mentioned. Thanks for listening.