224: How to heal your Mom Rage

Adrian, Hi, I'm Adrian in suburban Chicagoland, and this is Your Parenting Mojo with Jen Lumanlan. Jen is working on a series of episodes based on the challenges you are having with your child, from toothbrushing to sibling fighting, to the endless resistance to whatever you ask. Jen will look across all the evidence from thousands of scientific papers across a whole range of topics related to parenting and child development to help you see solutions to the issue you're facing that hadn't seen possible before. If you'd like a personalized answer to your challenge, just make a video if possible, or an audio clip if not, that's less than one minute long that describes what's happening, and email it to support@YourParentingMojo com, and listen out for your episodes soon.

Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. And I learned about today's book in kind of an unusual way. It's author, Mina Dubin, and I both live in Berkeley, and our books were reviewed in the same issue of our little local newspaper. And I've read a few books on mom rage by this time, and I have to say, I was kind of prepared to be underwhelmed, because they tend to kind of conclude, you know, being having mom rage is, is being a mom is rage-inducing? And I'm like, Yes, and where do we go from here? But Minna's book, Mom Rage: The Everyday Crisis of Modern Motherhood is different. It also helps us to think through some practical things that we can do about our rage. And I started recommending it to parents within the Parenting Membership. And member, Katie read it and immediately resonated with it. So Minna is here to tell us all about the ideas in the book. Welcome, and it's so great to meet you.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's my first time being interviewed by someone in Berkeley.

Yay. And Katie is here as well because we couldn't do this interview without you, Katie, because you've been talking about this book for so long now. And so welcome. It's great to see you as well.

Excited to be here.

Alright? And so Katie, my first question is actually for you rather than for Minna. And so I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about like, what drew you to this book. Why did this book resonate for you so much when you read it?

Well, I didn't resonate with the term Mom Rage at first. Like rage, it's such an intense word, and I think for me, it conjured up ideas of women who were so mad and didn't like motherhood, and that didn't really fit with my experience. But you know, I had heard you recommend it, so out of curiosity, I started reading a sample, and I was riveted, like it just was so gripping. And I think part of that for me was that you recognized myself in the stories of these mothers, because they it wasn't that they dislike motherhood like these were moms who loved and delighted in their children and sometimes boiled over in frustration, and that was my experience of motherhood. And so there are helpful tools in the book if you experience mom rage, but I think even more than that, you loved how there was so much that was just about motherhood more broadly in the book, and it really opened my eyes to see the framework of motherhood. It was like zooming out, and I could actually see this setup where we had these impossible expectations and so little support from society or even within our own family structures, and how that really sets us up for for rage and it's just overall harmful, and that really just helped me to understand my experience with motherhood so much more, and to see things like these moments of of rage or times when I didn't feel safe parenting in front of others, like to see that not as a personal feeling, but as a normal response to this framework that we're all living within.

Hmmmm, yes, yes. Okay, so seeing things within this, this broader idea of how does society perceive us? It's not just us in our little bubble doing our own thing. There's so so many interactions with what's going on around us. And so one of the big things that that came up when, after you read this book, Katie, you kept pointing this out whenever we were on calls together, you would be like, that's the PR team. And so, Minna, I'm wondering if you can tell us, firstly, like, kind of, what is the PR team, and then maybe Katie, you can, you sort of tell us about, why did this speak to you so much.

Yeah. And I just want to say, thanks, Katie for that response. As a writer, you know, you just like, write these words and put it into the ether and like, you're like, I hope somebody cared. Like it's it never gets old to hear readers respond to the work. So thank you so much. And it also felt really good to hear you'd be like, it was about so much more than rage, because sometimes I feel a little, you know, it's vulnerable to put out a book about rage, right? And so sometimes I feel a little vulnerable where I'm like, this is just a slice of my motherhood. Right, like my motherhood is big and complex and beautiful. Anyway, so thank you for that.

Yeah, so the PR team is a concept that I or a phrase that I created for this book to try and explain this thing that's invisible. The PR team is basically the cultural messaging that we get around the expectations of motherhood, of what a mother should be, and the messaging that tells us that mothering is good, and that if you want to be a good woman, then you should want to be a mother. And we get it. You know, from the time we're little, right? You see all these little girls wanting, you know, doing like Mommy play and like which, some of it is just natural, right? If you're in a family and you have a mommy like, but, but the messaging continues to paint it in a positive light, from, you know, books to movies, to all the things, and it also talks the PR team also tells us, like, what what makes a good mother? Like, what kind of mother should you be? So that might be like, making lunches that look really beautiful in bento boxes with five different sections that you've created, or making sure that you're always there at bedtime, or that you stay home for a year before you put your kid in daycare, even though there's no family leave that's paid for a year. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's like, we sort of sacrifice all of we sacrifice our career, we sacrifice our bodily autonomy, like we sacrifice all this stuff in order to meet this bar that's been created by we don't know who. But we internalize it. And we think it's, we think it's, it's what we want and what's best, but we don't exactly know why we think it's what's best.

Yes. Oh my goodness, yes. And just as a tiny, tiny example of what you're saying, right? Where does this stuff come up? I read a lot to my daughter, and we've been reading these adventure series called Fablehaven. And we've also seen this in every other book series we've read, right? The Red Wall Series, which are about little animal characters. And any time a female character is introduced, she's either introduced as pretty and slender, or if she's described as plump, then she's not described as pretty. And by the end of the book, she's going to be in a relationship with one of the male characters. And there is no such assumption of the male characters. It's just seen as what girls are supposed to want.

Totally. I actually, I don't know if you've heard it. Another Berkeley author, Ruth Whitman, she just, she came out with a book Boy Mom. And that book really opened my eyes to the way that, uh, girls and boys, books and characters are portrayed. And that boys, it's always like this adventure and a hero. And that girls, it's always about interpersonal connecting.

Right? Yeah, yeah. So, Katie, what have you seen? How did this show up for you, in terms of the PR team and your interactions with your kids and sort of inside yourself as well?

Well, I found myself looking for that PR everywhere and thinking about like, okay, what are the messages that I've received about what motherhood is, what makes a good mom. And, you know, maybe before I talk about where I was seeing that, I have another question for a minute. The one thing that I found really helpful was realizing that the expectations around motherhood have changed over time. Because I think I just, well, this is what a good mom is, you know, like the bento box, like, that's just what you do, right? And so that there's a term that you used in the book intensive mothering, like learning about that concept was really helpful to me and seeing how that has changed over time. So would you be willing to share a little bit about what intensive mothering is and how that's different than past expectations? Because that was part of what really helped me about seeing this PR.

Yeah. Intensive mothering is a term that was, I think, coined by Andrea O'Reilly, who's a feminist scholar in Canada. And it is this idea that came up, kind of like in the 90s and 2000s that I forget all of the taglines. There's like five words, but it's like, emotionally intensive, no, sorry, emotionally intensive, that a lot of labor, financially, expensive, I forget what they are, but it's just like, it's very involved motherhood, right? So like the bento box, it's putting your kids in all sorts of extracurricular activities. It's about like, always bettering your child and being very concerned about, like, you know, it's like, it's like, ambitious motherhood, where it really is this, like, constant full time job, and it's juxtaposed to, like, the mothering that I grew up with, which was called custodial mothering, which was much more relaxed, where, like, my mom's job was not to entertain me, right? Like her job was to, like, make sure I was safe and fed, but like, I had to go entertain myself. And I would like go play outside by myself or with my friends. But now I think we with intensive mothering, moms are like, on the floor with the child engaged in the in the like in the fantasy play, and that's like more of what's expected of mothers.

I think that's helpful for me to realize that what my mom was expected to do is different than the expectations for me, and to look for those things like, oh, is this expectation that I'm holding for myself, labor intensive? Is it, you know, costing more money? Is it all these different pieces that were part of this intensive mothering? And as I started to look for more of those pieces of PR like, what are these messages, they found that, for me, they kind of fell into two different categories, like one category was more traditional, you know, around motherhood. You know, maybe like motherhood is martyrdom. You know, like you always have to put your kids needs first. But then started identifying this, these other messages as also being PR, this sort of counter messaging, you know, this, this pushback, which I originally had seen as as helpful, as good, right? Like, no, motherhood is not martyrdom. You know, it's mothers should set boundaries and should say no to their kids, and, you know, plan a night out every week. And but with that comes this expectation that if you're not doing those things, then you're not a good mother, right? Like, if you're not able to say no to your kids, or if that doesn't work for your kids, right? Like, if that's not a thing that you're able to do, or if you're feeling like that you can't you're not able to carve out self-care time, like it puts it back on you, right? Like that, you're the one with the problem. Because if you were a good mom, like you would do all of those things, right? So being able to see that counter messaging, that pushback, is functioning in the same way as fear and how that it's actually harmful for us when it it's this expectation that you're trying to live up to.

Yeah, totally and, and this the, I feel like the self-care message, which has been really big, like in the last 10 years, I find it totally oppressive. And the problem with it is that it still puts the onus on the mother, like it's still the mother's labor, not only to take care of the family, but then to do the self-care right, like she's not doing a good job as a mother if she's not going out with her friends for ladies night and taking a bubble bath, as if either of those things like, are going to solve the problem that we don't have. You know, all of this, all of the societal supports that we're making dinner every night that, like, our labor goes towards the rise of our partner's career, right? Like it doesn't actually change the system of patriarchal mothering.

Yes, I found that that counter messaging just layers on another set of expectations too, right? Like there's still sort of this underlying message of, well, you better make sure your kids needs are met too. Like you can't step back so much from this message of, make sure your kids needs are are met, put them first, that that you're not doing that right? Like it's just now. You also have to go out once a week and pick a bubble bath. Like, all those things too, right? Like it's just adding on more to the labor and and the what it is that we're expected to do, to be a good mother, to be deemed a good mother.

Yeah. And when you talk about it, I just keep hearing you say, You, you, you, and that's what it is. Like, it's not, why don't we help you in this work? It's just like, it's just about you and and it's all this pressure on the mother to do all of this work by herself.

Yeah, I just want to pull out a couple of points. I should have turned this whole interview over to you, Katie, clearly, clearly, my present presence here is superfluous. I just want to sort of come back to the sort of, you know, the 1980s parenting thing. And I don't want to romanticize parenting from previous generations either, right? Like, 1980s parenting was not so amazing for me. There's a whole bunch of parents in therapy right now, because it wasn't so amazing for them, right, either. And so, you know, I think wherever we are raising children, whatever time period we're raising children, there were things about our experience in that culture that were really hard, right? The 80s wasn't some amazing utopia for women that we're trying to get back to. So just want to kind of make that point that we are not where we want to be yet, and we are making progress, hopefully in that direction, and kind of linking into we're going to start talking about rage right now, right and want to make sure that this point that you're both making comes out, which is else. Ultimately, what the sort of self-care industry, the momfluencer industry, wants us to do is to look for these individual level solutions to what are societal problems, right? And this is how we get to sort of, you know, oh, I'm feeling depressed. Oh, well, then you should take antidepressants, right? There is nothing wrong with our culture here. There's nothing in our culture that should change. It's you're the one with the problem, and you should take this medication so that you can fit in better with our culture. And I'm certainly not anti antidepressants in any way, and I know that some people have found them very helpful, but if we are only taking that tech and we're not looking at this broader picture of, why are 20% of women finding it so hard to navigate life in our culture, right? Why? And why are we pursuing this as an individual level fix? And so, so as we, as we kind of move from there into anger, right, which is kind of the core of the book, and I'm wondering kind of where does this anger come from? And you looked at some reviews and and literature in your in your book, and there was one that you cited that identified anger as associated between a mismatch, as a mismatch between what women expected of the mothering experience and what actually occurred, including failure to reach standards of idealized motherhood, support from significant others, not meeting expectations and unanticipated loss of the pre motherhood self. And then you also interviewed a parent, I think her name was Cheryl, and she "suspected that feelings of unworthiness are at the heart of her internalized rage." And I guess I'm curious as to kind of where you see this rage coming from in terms of sort of the mismatch hypothesis, the the sort of feelings of unworthiness. How do those fit together? Is it different for different people? What are your thoughts on all that?

Yeah. And I guess I want to also respond to the custodial mother thing, not being like a fantasized as this wonderful thing. And I do think that intensive mothering is a course correction, but it's an over course correction for the problems that were part of custodial motherhood. So yeah, some of the studies that I found about rage and what causes anger in motherhood, this idea that like that when you get there, your expectations of the experience and of the and of the support that you're going to get when they don't meet that that there's a resentment that builds around it, and a feeling like no one is taking care of me and so that comes from the society, right? Because the P the picture that the PR team paints is not this mother all alone, doing all of the labor and everyone's left, you know, like maybe the mother and the mother the grandmother and the grandmother-in-law, right, who showed up for like, the first two weeks or whatever, are gone the, you know, assuming it's a different sex marriage, and the husband went back to work, or whoever, even if, you know, the wife went back to work. Like somebody has to go to work, right? They went back to work. And it's just like this mother all alone. And I think that picture doesn't get painted by the PR team. And so there, some of it is just this, like, massive disappointment, like in the world, in a way, like in the society, in the partner. And then some of it is also, you know, rage. They found that rage, like anger, can come from financial hardship, from lack of sleep, which is like, you know, I mean, I did some work studying that in the book. And one of the things I found out is that lack of sleep can, you know, it can go on for a decade, and and lack of sleep is gender related to like, there were studies that found that even once the baby isn't nursing anymore, the amount the number of women who are up versus men is skewed, and then the amount of time they're up for I think it was 44 minutes for mothers and 30 minutes for fathers. Like the gender, and even if there's, even if it's a double, like, equal earning household, you know, and there's no excuse of like, well, I have to go to work, right? It still happens. And so I think, and I think that we can't, we can't underplay sleep. I actually think that sleep is a huge part of it. And for myself, like, even once, my kids were sleeping through the night and I wasn't doing, I wasn't nursing, you know, they were what, they went to bed forever. And if you have kids who are staggered ages, and then one finally finishes, and then the next starts, like, you know, it was eight years that I was up. And then what you mentioned about, there's, there's a lot of factors to range, which is why this is a long answer. Another one is matrescence. Right? This matrescence is the life phase of becoming a mother, sort of like adolescence, the life phase of becoming an adult. What? It's a life phase that doesn't get recognized and that there's not support for it, and so it's very lonely experience, while the woman is experiencing this whirlwind of changes, you know, socially, physically, neurologically, culturally, like, her value in the world has changed what she's her importance in the world. And I think that that goes to to the Cheryl story in the book, which is one of the moms that I interview, and she says, she says this line that I use later, "Maybe I can be precious too," right? Because she, because she thinks, like, don't I love my kid? Like, of course, I love him. Isn't he? Like, wouldn't I do anything in the world for him? Yes, I would. Isn't he the most, most precious thing in the world to me? Yes, he is. Maybe I can be precious too. And I think what part of that is like, once the baby comes, the mother's importance, like, to the world just sinks. It plummets. The baby is everything, both to her and to the world, right? She's just the carrier of the baby. She's just like, Where's the baby? Like, you know? Like, everyone wants to know where the baby is. It's all about the baby. And, yeah, I think that that is, like, that's like, a big shock, just like, and we do it for ourselves. Like, we also stop taking care of ourselves, in a way, because it's, it's really intense to take care of a little human who can't take care of itself, right? Like it does take all of us. And I think the unworthiness part of that is connected to the PR team, because the PR team says that in order to be good, we have to be mothers, and we have to be this kind of mother. And so we're always failing, right? Like we're never gonna meet this perfect standard. And so there's all these ways that we do feel unworthy. And then I think just as women, the way that we are socialized, that if you're not this, you're not good, if you're you know, if you're not thin, you're not good, if you're not you know, if you're not exercising, you're not good. You know all these things. And so I think the feeling of unworthiness, like maybe it's not ubiquitous across all mothers, but I do think it's fairly common of having issues around self-worth.

Yeah, okay, all right. Huge answer, right for a huge question. I wonder if we can set the matrescence aside for a second, because I know Katie wants to do some more digging into that. And Katie, when a minute was talking about sleep early, we were like, yes, so I want to get to that in just a second. And and I guess, you know, when I'm just thinking about how the mother and child kind of alone by themselves, and oh my goodness, I remember that so well, and just kind of being in the house with my daughter all day by herself, and it's like, what do we even do, right? How do I not kind of just go wild together and with no help. And I remember my husband coming home and me shoving her at him and being like, I don't care what kind of day you've had. I don't care who commute was. It is your turn. And then kind of combined with that, the four month sleep regression stands out so clearly in my mind, and our in-laws were actually here at that time, helping us to look after her as I was, I think I was transitioning back to work at that point. Maybe it was six months. So somewhere in that period, and Carys went through a phase where she had to be kind of rocked to sleep, and then, you know, gently laid down. And then she'd be good. If you put her down too early, she'd be up. And so I could do it. My father-in-law could do it. My husband would, kind of, you know, rock her a little bit roughly and put her down and be like, I can't do it. And I'm that was my first like that. I didn't even know what I was experiencing at that point, but that was my first kind of, I know you can do this, I know you are physically capable of doing this, and yet you are "not capable" of doing this so that now I have to go back in and fix this situation. So that was kind of one of the early instances of how it came up for me. And Katie I know sleep is huge for you, because you are, you are in this right now. So tell us, how is this coming up for you related to sleep and related to other things as well?

Yeah. Well, when I read that part in the book about 10 years it was like, yes, that's happening to me. You know, I have a seven year old, a five year old and a three year old, and often my husband and I are both up overnight between the three kids, you know. And it doesn't feel like there's an end in sight. So, you know, I think three more years, like we might, I might sleep again, you know. And that definitely impacts my my window of tolerance, right, and like, how much capacity I have before I'm boiling over, right? And yeah, so that's sleep is definitely a big factor in my own experience. And yeah, I think too with you were describing these other things, like, if you're not thin, you're not good. If you're not exercising, you're not good. Think part of why this book hit me so much was because I couldn't I could see that messaging when it came to womanhood, like I could point out those things and be like, oh, you know, I see what you're doing here. But with motherhood, it just had never occurred to me, like, I couldn't see how that same thing was going on about being a mother. Like, yeah, so, so that's where this book really opened my eyes to that. And wait a minute, like, this is the same thing, but it's about motherhood. And yeah, like, where, where I couldn't see that in in this role before.

Yeah, I think, you know, listening to you, Katie, one of the things that made me think of is the way that the darker parts of motherhood, or the harder parts of motherhood, because they're not shown by the PR team in the messaging that we get. We feel like it's just us and so motherhood, like we feel very alone in our experience. And I mean, it felt like a risk, in a way, to name this book Mom Rage, because I was afraid, right? Just like you said, that people would be like, whoa, that's intense, you know, that's not me. And what I find is that, like, the more I talk about it with people, and especially when people actually read the book, like, I get that response that you had all the time, where they're like, Oh, I saw myself in your book, you know. And I think that part of it is that, like, we would never want to admit to being rageful or being or like angry moms, right? Like no one wants that title and as and the thing about it is that, like, I actually just think that all of the moms in this book are just normal moms, right? And I'm just pulling out these moments where we're furious. We also have all the other moments, right? But just like the world, like when you show yourself as an angry Mom, that's all the world sees. It's also all you see, right? Because that's not a good thing to show and so despite being exhausted, you are so mad at yourself about it anyway. It just made me think about that.

Yeah, well, that reminds me of something in the book where, when you talk about the cycle of rage, and how there's this ramp up to it, and that was a really helpful concept, and one that I another place where I started pointing that out to people you know, because you're right, when you experience that rage, that's all you see, and that's where you feel the shame around it. But when you can look at all the other parts that happened just before that, and you know every time you responded patiently and lovingly and gently, no matter how frustrating it was, and that how that is a factor. That's how you get to that point where you end up exploding because of all these times that you were not that right. And so being able to almost, like, take credit for that right, like, to be able to see that like, okay, no, I'm not just the mom I was in that moment when I raged like, I'm also the mom who for the whole rest of the day was so gentle and loving and patient and speaking the book too, that even the stories that you told, they were always interwoven with these other aspects of yourself and the mothers, right? Like, where there was that complex picture of it's not just moms who are angry and raging that the love is always there and is usually more right, like, that's, that's the main part of their motherhood. It's just these moments that that come up right?

Yeah, at the beginning of that, the chapter where I talk about Mom Rage is a five phase cycle. I tell the story of my kid getting kicked out of his second preschool, getting this letter that's telling me that, like, it's no longer a good fit and and then my husband and I go to the school, and we have this meeting, and we, like, are so prepared, and we're like, you know, have this bribery package, and our argument about why they can't kick him out. And like, you know, that's this piece of like, look, what a good advocate I was. You look how I took care of my kid, and I wouldn't let these people, like, give up on him, right? And I think you're right that, like, you just, it just disappears, right? When you rage, like, we just don't see it in that ramp up phase when, like, when there's all these aggravations, like repeated aggravations, right where, like, the kid won't eat the food, and they, like, spilled everything everywhere, and your husband, like, or wife, you know, dismisses you, and, you know, whatever, whatever, like, It's like, all of these things compound onto each other. And in the second phase, which I call emotional whack a mole, you're you're like, tamping that down, that anger, that irritation, because, like a, we're busy, we don't have time to, like, process every time we feel like a wisp of irritation. And be we're socialized to not be angry and to like to think that anger is not a, you know, attractive or positive emotion to display. And so by time we rage, it's partially because of that tamping down. So when it explodes, it's like we have lost all control of it. You know, we have been tamping it down for so long, over all the irritations and all the ways that we feel unsupported, or, you know, oppressed by this role in some way. Yeah, and I guess I'll name the other ones like and then, and then, after the rage was, is the third one comes the shame spiral, where we feel what you mentioned, right? This, this guilt and this shame about having having yelled or stomped or whatever we did, whatever way we expressed our rage, and then the short term repair, where we make up and apologize and take responsibility for our actions, yeah.

And I just want to put this within a broader framework that we talk about on the podcast all the time, right? The idea of needs, and what I was hearing from Katie in your description of what's happening is, you know, yes, I was calm and loving and caring towards you, and my need wasn't being met in that moment, right? I was putting your need ahead of my need, and again and again and again. And so when you go through your whole day not getting your needs met, then, yes, by the end of the day, it's like, I have needs too. And so, you know, Minna, you know this, this whisper of anger that you mentioned, and we're busy, and we don't have time to analyze that every, every time it comes up, what if we could? What if we could, like it, maybe not even right now, that's too big to think about doing. But if we could look back afterwards, oh yeah, there was a whisper of anger there, wasn't there? What was that about? Right? What need did I have in that moment that wasn't being met? And how could I take a step toward getting that need met so that it's not, you know, my kid is moving through the day getting their needs met. And then I explode. It's that we're moving through our days together and everything. Maybe we don't do as much because everything takes a tiny bit longer, because we are meeting our needs throughout the day, and then maybe there is less rage. The societal stuff is still there around us, so it's not going to go away completely, but there's sort of, there's a greater sense of everybody's needs being met. And so, Minna, did you want to respond to that?

Yeah, I just wanted to say that like, and when you think about the PR team and the way that we are taught that mothers are needless creatures, basically, right? And our role is to is to fulfill everyone else's needs. We see that modern motherhood is a setup for rage, right? If we're, if we're, if we're supposed to be needless, and then, and then we're constantly pushing down our needs and not meeting them, of course, like it is being angry is actually, if you look at it, the expected outcome of motherhood, if we follow the PR team's instructions on what is a "good mother."

Absolutely. So you mentioned matrescence, and I loved that chapter, and wish that I had had that information as I entered into motherhood, but I found myself struggling to make sense of the idea of matrescence alongside motherhood PR. So could you speak a little bit about, like, how to hold those together? Like, how can motherhood be based on all these messages we're getting? And use this phrase in the book, like, the scam of motherhood? Like, how can it be a scam, but at the same time, matrescence be real?

Yeah, I mean, matrescence is, is that we're going through all of these changes, right? We are changing as a person, and the one of the issues is that matrescence is not acknowledged, right? We're not given the care for the way that an adolescent who is going through all those kind of similar changes, and I show that, like, they go through similar brain changes, as we do in matrescence, that there's all of this, like, caring for adolescents. There's all this like, like, personhood building and community building, right? They go to school with all these people, but we're, like, alone in our houses as mothers. We don't have this community. Like, I think of it as as two really different things. Part of the the cultural change that we experience in in during matrescence, part of, I mean, part of it is natural, right? You become, you have a new being, right? Like, you're just gonna change to some degree. But I think that because of the PR team, we have a different experience of it than we could and because of the societal lack of support, we are alone in that meaning-making right, and the only meaning-making that we have is like what we do alone with that child, and then what we understand from media. We don't have, like, we don't have this crew, like, this community of, like, going to high school, of all these people doing, going through the exact same thing that we are all like, supporting each other and calling each other on the phone, and, like, hanging out after from three to six. Like, you know, if you, like, really, if you do that, like uh, mirroring of adolescence. Like, if we had that, it would be a very different experience if we had all of that kind of emotional support.

Makes sense. Yeah, you know, with that PR messaging and looking for it in my own life, I found myself wondering, like, how am I complicit in this? Like, where am I spreading this PR, like, how am I sharing these same messages that are harmful with other people? And then also, like, how could I do that differently? Like, what sort of more liberating message about motherhood could I be sharing instead? So I wonder if that's something that you've thought about either for yourself, like, where you find yourself doing that, or just more broadly, where you see, see us doing that to each other, right? Like, see Mom sort of passing on that PR to other mothers, and what a more liberating message, or ways to resist that, way to push back, ways to push back against that.

Yeah. I mean, I have a lot of compassion, I think, just for moms in general, like, I do think that we internalize the messages, because that's what humans do, right? And so, like, even though I want mothering, my mothering to be less intensive, like, the other day there was like, a school picnic, and I was like, Oh, I only have, like a loaf of bread on the counter. I guess I'll make peanut butter and jelly and I'll just, I used to cut my daughter's peanut butter and jelly with a heart cookie cutter, because she wouldn't eat anything, right? It was like a desperation thing, but it also looks like an intensive mothering thing. So I made all of these, like, I mean, I must have done like, 150 or something, right? Because if you just make little heart ones, like, there's not enough. So I made a ton because it was for the picnic. And multiple moms, like, I mean, they both, I got praised multiple times for for the hearts. And one of them was like, Oh, why did you do that? Now, like, you know, my mother-in-law saw it, and she's like, why can't you make lunches like that? And like, and my daughter saw it too. I wasn't even with her when I made it, but she saw it there and now, and she asked for it, and she was like, Can I have enough for lunch? Again, I haven't made it for her for years. And this morning, I made her the goddamn peanut butter and jelly in the heart shapes, you know? And so, like, that's a moment where, like, I don't want to do this, and I did it. And just like, the response that I got from it was so interesting, like, the way that I was praised by mothers and also cursed by mothers. Like, it's all just like, I think that I'm totally complicit, because it's hard not to be like, for example, like there's no school on October 7 in Berkeley, and so there's this question of, like, what, how do we deal with the day, right? And so, like, so I've gotten messages from a couple mothers, like, what are you doing with your with your daughter? You know, are you gonna put them in this camp? Or, like, just like, the way that we think about, like, maybe that's a bad example. Actually, maybe we should scratch that.

I mean, it speaks really nicely to me, of there's a capitalist solution to this struggle that the school has created for you, which is you, you pay for a spot in cam for your kid, instead of, like, you know, either the school provides an alternate activity or you get together to do something. So I could still see it going somewhere useful. But if you want to do a different example.

Let's go with that. Yeah, I feel like with that, with the this example, like I have, I have mostly opted to put my kid in a program to pay the money, because I have the financial means to pay the, like, $100 or $150 or whatever it is for like, that day. But then I'm like, then I hear about the moms for like, Oh, we're not doing anything. And I'm like, that's, that's cool, right? Like, you're just like, you're just, like, we're just gonna hang out, they're gonna hang out. But then I'm like, Ah, I don't want to, like, stay home all day. And, like, now I've taken care of the kid. Like, where did my work day go? Like, my partner's still gonna go to work, you know? And so, like

Why Is it your work day that's the one.

That's get destroyed. And part of that is that, like, I'm a writer, and so I don't, like, make money in a day necessarily, right? So, like, my art is less valuable than him as a therapist, right? So, like, there's just so much going on, like, when you when you talk about, like, ways that you're complicit, I'm just like, we're all complicit, and we're all fighting it. Like, I just back to the beginning of compassion. Like I have compassion. I try to have compassion for myself, because we are all just like trying to make it in this capitalist system with these messages telling us what's good and bad.

Yeah, as I was thinking about Katie's question, I was thinking about ways that we judge ourselves and ways that we judge other people. And to me, that seemed to sort of cover a whole lot of the bases, right? There was, you know, with the sandwich example. I mean, it was, well, I'm judging myself for making these sandwiches, and then, and then you're being judged by other people, right? And so if we can catch ourselves judging ourselves, and if we can also catch ourselves judging other parents, who, you know, you've all seen the parent at the swings, who's pushing their kid while they're on their phone and completely ignoring the kid. And it's like, well, you know that parent's not very involved, clearly, is the judgment. And then it's like, well, maybe this is the first and only mental break they're going to get today, and they're taking advantage of that, and good for them, right? And they're going to be a more involved parent when they get home, because they were able to get that mental break. And so I think this idea of noticing that judgment of ourselves and of others is and providing some sort of counter narrative, right, like maybe this is the only break they're getting all day is a really important way to practice resistance. Katie, I'm wondering also, if you've tried different things, if you have ideas on that too

Well, I think kind of along those same lines, like, anytime I find myself sort of with this underlying or explicit right phrase or messaging of, well, a good mother would Right. Like, well, a good mother would not be looking on their phone or, you know, and it goes to the other side too, right, like, oh well, that mom is being too involved with their kid at the playground, right? Like, like, the judgment comes from no matter what you're you're doing, and so kind of looking for that underlying message within myself, like, whether it's about me, oh well, a good mother wouldn't turn on the TV right now, or, you know, and then, when I'm using that phrase, sort of in looking at other parents around me too, and so kind of like catching myself with that, and then, yeah, but I think that's where I've struggled a bit with, like, well, what is the more liberating message? Because it's not the opposite. It's not like, oh well, that, you know, well, the opposite thing is, is not good, right? Yeah, that's been a little trickier for me to land on. Like, I think I've played around with sort of this, like, oh, well, all mothering is good mothering. You know, like seeing all the things as potentially good. But I don't, I don't know. I don't know if either of you have any ideas for what, what is that more liberating message. If it's not the counter PR, like, what? What is something that's less oppressive?

Yeah. I mean, I generally just, I feel like a message that I try to think about is just to, like, give myself grace and and this, this idea that, like, you don't know what's going on for that mother, right? That might be the only mental break they get a day. I mean, I think that that's a good way to think about people across the board, you know, like, if someone was like, stepped in front of you and you're like, oh, excuse you, you know, like, you don't know what, maybe they're in a rush because their father's in the hospital. Like, in general, I think that's a good way to be. And I think for myself, I try to, you know, I it would. Maybe it would work less for someone with less privilege, but I think as someone who is financially privileged, I mean, I don't own my house, but, like, I'm able to afford rent in the Bay Area, like, I think my kids probably gonna be okay, regardless of the little choice I make, whether to give them another hour of screen time, or whether, you know, I say, you know, okay, just like, stay home today, like, whatever the choice is, like, none of it probably matters that much, like in the larger scheme of things. So even with the lunches, like I worked so hard on lunches and, like, I don't know I have the time they come back empty or not empty, you know, they come back full, like they didn't need it anyway, or they ate school lunch. And I'm like, yes, maybe I shouldn't be making you lunch at all. Like school lunch is the great equalizer. Everyone should be having school lunch. Like, I sort of believe that too. So I don't know for for me in general, I just feel like it's like, trying not to judge myself. And I definitely am able to give that message to other moms, if I talk to like, if I talk to my friends and they're like, I'm struggling about this, or like, I'm gonna kill whoever in my house, you know, like, I'm able to just give them so much compassion. And I'm like, You're a great mom. You're doing a great job. And it's almost like I need a little like, recording of that for myself.

Which segues beautiful into something that we want to talk about around deshaming, this idea of mom rage, right? And I know Katie, this is something that you've been working on, and you've been talking with other moms that you know and getting really explicit about the rage that you feel and how that shows up in your family. And I'm wondering if you can tell us how you learned this firstly, and then kind of if you're willing to extend this practice out to our listeners, if you can share a time when you really lost it with your kids, so that they can consider sharing their practices. You know, there are things that happen to them with their friends. So, so what comes up for you for when you hear that?

So as I was reading the book, there was so much that I wanted to discuss with it, so I was sharing it with some of the other moms that I'm friends with, and I realized that the way that I would share about these, what I would now call like a rage moment, was different, you know. So I have two close friends that I would share those moments with. And with one, I would say, like, Oh, I lost it with my kids, or oh, I said something shaming, and I regret it, but I wouldn't go into detail. And with the other, like, I would actually say what words I said and things like that. And as I was reading this book and noticing this difference, because I didn't even notice it first, I am thinking about why that was, I realized that it was because the friend where I shared the details, she had done that with me first, like as we got to know each other, and she started sharing these rage moments, she would actually say the words she said to her kids in the tone of voice that she said it to them, which is much more jarring, you know, even though those were the same things that were coming out of my mouth occasionally with my kids, right? And but she, by her doing that, like she made it safe for me to do that too. And so in realizing that, like talking about it with my friend, where I'm more just glossed over it, you know, and saying I'm going to try to do this like, I'm going to try to actually say the details, because I think that's more deshaming. And in doing that, you know, that made that space safe for her too. So now she's able to share those details with me. And that carried on too, like where then she's able to share those instances with her partner too, in a way that's that's not shaming. So yeah, that that process has been really helpful of actually saying more explicitly, like the things that I did or said, rather than using that more kind of broad statement of, Oh, I lost it. So in terms of an example, I can share a recent one that I shared with one of these friends as well. Let's see stars outside with two of my kids, and they were playing with the neighbor. And my understanding was that the neighbor had to leave at five o'clock to go to an appointment. So we were going to transition inside so I could get dinner on the table, and I was outside. Was enjoying it. It was totally fine. And five o'clock came and went, and the parents didn't come out to take the neighbor to the appointment. And I went from zero to 60 so quickly, like I and I, it surprised even me. I was like, why am I so like, just in this panic of, like, I need to be in the house right now. I cannot be out here one second longer. But my kids were, you know, not paying much attention even to my, like, frantic, like, we need to go in the house right now. And so I ended up, I shut the garage, even though that's normally how we'd get in the house and, you know, but just in my like, as I was ratcheting it up, just, you know, like, we need to go in now, now I close the garage, and one of my kids starts getting upset, and it's like, well, I go in, you close the garage. So we go in the front door. They take off their bike helmet and leave it at the front door. And, you know, I immediately jump in with, you know, like, take that to the garage now. And I mean, our house is not super tidy, like, this was not about the bike helmet. It's just like, all of a sudden that rage is just right there. And so I go out and I get my other kid inside, and the bike helmet is still there. And at that point, I'm just like, right now, take that bike helmet to the garage. And my child actually yanked back at me and was like, and you know, in that moment, there was this part of me that was agreeing with him, like this sense of like, you know, if someone was yelling at me to do something, that's the last thing that I would be willing to do, right? And so I had this one part that could see this and this other rage part that was like, what? Like, I'm so mad right now. So I, you know, so my child yells, like, you're not me. So I pick up the helmet and I yell back, you know? Well, I started,

I can't hear you. What did you yell back?

I yelled back, see if you can find it like as if I was going to hide his helmet from him. And I start walking towards the garage, and I see our back door, and I have this urge to open the back door and just chuck his helmet like as far as I could possibly throw it, and I could feel in my body like, how helpful that would feel if I if I did that, just to release all that. But I also knew I didn't want to go chase this helmet, so I didn't do that. I walked past, and the next thing I came to was our laundry room. So I opened the laundry room door, and again, feel this urge to just like, throw this helmet so hard against the wall, but I don't want it to break. So I saw a laundry basket there, so I dropped the helmet in the laundry basket. And as I'm walking out, I again feel this urge to just like the door, but in that moment, I ended up not slamming the door, because I had this thought pop in my head of like, well, I don't want them to know where the helmet is. I don't want him to be able to find it right, and because this rage part is just like, so mad and so strong. And luckily, my my husband was getting off work at the time, so I was able to say, like, I am not okay, and I don't even know why right now. And so I need to take a minute and, you know, can you start pulling out the dinner? And so I was able to, you know, take a minute and actually left a message for for a friend, and walked through like, this is what happened, and this is what I said. And but I started it with how we even ended up outside in the first place, right? And I was able to kind of see why I had just gone from 0 to 60 so quickly. And like, to re regulate, and to be able to come back down and apologize to my kids and, like, repair with them. And at some point that night, I think I put the bike helmet back in the garage where we usually keep it. And yeah, but it was helpful to to have people where I can, like, talk that through and actually say the explicit things, even when they feel shameful or embarrassing or right, and to know that those things are going on in their houses too.

Yeah, wow, wow. I feel so grateful to have received that story. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. I really think that sharing rage stories with other mothers is like medicine that all of us need. Can I ask you a quick question about it? When you were telling the story to your friend and you were like, making sense of like, why you got so mad? In the book, I talk about rage triggers, like being able to identify, like, what was the trigger there that like, what was the story that was happening underneath that helmet? Do you know what it was?

Okay? So, or at least, I have a what, what my rage is often about. Like, I have this sort of, like mental image of of this rage part, just like jumping up and down, like so mad and yelling. And so I think yelling,

I can't hear you. Yelling whta?

Needs matter.

Oh, uh huh.

And so I think in that moment it was, you know, like it wasn't that I wasn't meeting any of my needs being outside, but I chose to meet different needs outside than if we had stayed inside, if we had followed our original plan of staying inside, and with this expectation that at five o'clock we'd have this easy transition where then I could meet these other needs that I couldn't be meeting outside in the situation that we were in. And so when that didn't happen, this part was afraid that I'm not going to be able to get these other needs met. And in combination, with our time outside, was getting harder. So like in that moment, my kids, instead of us, you know, having this easy transition inside, they were in the neighbor's garage, like taking out Capri Suns and, like, it's almost dinner, and then they're asking, Can I have this? And the neighbor hasn't even offered that, you know, it's like, all of a sudden, this is much less easy than it was, and I just want to be inside where I can have some ease and do the things we need to do to move on to the next part of the night. So, so again, just this, like, my needs matter and I'm worried that they're not going to be met. I think that that's that big trigger for me, or that's like, often, what's underneath it this, like, fear that my needs are going to matter or that they don't matter in this moment.

Yeah, wow, I identify so hard listening to you. I think that's also like a really common struggle for mothers around, like, around the routine and like, veering off of the routine, like, I want to be chill, I want to say, yes, you know, I want to let you do this thing. Like, fine. And then you let them do the thing, and then everything that you were afraid of happened. Like, it did get harder. This did happen late. You did go to bed late. Like, like, you know, all the stuff happens. And like, yeah, I can just like, I can just imagine it. I like, feel it in my body, the way that you're talking about it. I feel like a lot. I think fear plays a huge part, like fear that this isn't going to go well, and that's not going to go well, you know, but it like it builds on top of each other.

The judgment of the neighbor, right? Who might come out and see your kids rooting around in their garage and taking their stuff, right? What are they going to think of your kids, of your parenting in this already stressful moment.

And we're holding so like you in that moment are holding so much like you're holding the like, how are your kids? Are they going to act right for the neighbor? Is the neighbor going to be okay with what's happening? Are they going to judge you based on what your kids are doing? Are your kids going to get fed? Are you going to make dinner like you in this moment are all alone with so much work like. Like mental and physical work to deal with. It's a lot, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Thank you so much for that gift. Katie. I hope that other parents who are listening to this will kind of get a sense for what it's like to receive that from somebody else and to know that it's okay to share this with somebody in your community as well. And I sort of want to link this idea minute you mentioned your rage triggers, right, and the importance of identifying those. And you what you walk through this beautiful process in your book of inviting your rage to tea. And then you, you identified one of your triggers. There was one that really caught my attention, which was when you would be talking with one of your kids, and you would be saying something that they were or weren't allowed to do, and then your husband would just kind of, who I'm sure is a delightful person, would just casually shout from the next room, oh, I think that's okay with me. It's okay the kid does that. And I was curious, because some of this is around, you know, understanding ourselves, right, and what is triggering for us, and how do we navigate that? But part of it is like, can we talk about how we navigate differences in opinion between what kids are allowed to do? So does your husband still do that? Do you still find it triggering? Where are you with that particular trigger?

Good question. You know, I think so much about that particular trigger, like some of it is rooted in patriarchy, right? That he thinks that, like, his opinion is so important that it needs to be said even though I already made a decision, like, why can't my decision just stand? And part of it is about fear, right? Like, if he says this thing, then this is going to happen, and this is going to happen, and then I'm not going to get my child to, like, be able to do the thing I said, like, and you know what I mean? Like, I some of that is, like, anxiety of spin out, and some of that's real, like, it's gonna be harder. Where are we in it? I think it is still something that was that we struggle with. I am not a different person. He is not a different person. So I won't, I can't, like, lie and be like, we I wrote this book, and he read the book, and now he doesn't do it anymore. Um, because part of it is that he doesn't hold the fear that I hold, and so he just, like, doesn't think it's a big deal if, like, we have a difference of opinion in front of the kids. Like, we can talk about it. We can decide what's right. Like, it doesn't matter. Um, but I will say that he is, he is better at talking to me privately about a difference of opinion around the kids, but it is definitely still something that we struggle with, and I think it will just be like one of our things forever, and like I talked to him about it, he knows about it. And part of my work is also to like, respond without freaking out, right? And to be like, I'm gonna talk to daddy about this. I think, going in the other room and talking to him and like, yeah, yeah. I mean, I wish I could lie and be like, we worked it out, he doesn't do that anymore. And I think that there's another perspective where, like, he might say, she's not wound so tightly, you know, she doesn't freak out as much anymore, right? Like, I think there's multiple ways to look at it, but, yeah, it's still something that's there, but maybe quite, not quite as like at that level of intensity.

Yeah, and Katie, I'm just wondering if, if there is something that you want to say about your relationship with your partner, but I also know that your relationship with grandparents is really important to you as well, and in terms of how they kind of perpetuate the PR messages. What would you say is sort of most important, as we kind of wrap up here, in terms of your relationships with other adults in your life, and how that contributes to or as wages in some way, some of the stuff we've been talking about?

Yeah, well, maybe kind of the grandparents, or even thinking more broadly about people that we interact with. You know, you took in the book about kind of building, like a support network and being a factor in sort of things that we can do to to address the lack of care and support that society provides for mothers. And I find myself with that, like with grandparents, like where they often are expressing a lot of this motherhood PR that's harmful, and so in those types of situations, or even like situations with other parents, like when you're going into a situation, you know, like a PTA meeting or something, and you know that the adults there might hold these views, like this PR messaging and and there's that possibility of judgment that you're not meeting it, you know, like that I experienced with the grandparents sometimes too. Like, how can you like, do you have any suggestions for how to navigate that? Like, either how to push back on those messages or how to how to feel safer in those situations when that PR is coming at you from, from the other people in your network, or that you're that you have relationships with.

Yeah, I don't think I, I mean, with grandparents, I mostly deal with, like they have a different view on something that I'm I think is, like, a regressive view. It's not necessarily about mothering, per se, but like, yeah, and I'll just be like, I don't want you, I don't want that in front of my children. Like, you can't talk about that thing in front of my kids.

Now, give an example with grandparents.

Yeah, I'm, like, trying to avoid it because I don't want to, like, talk trash on my family. Yeah, there's some, like, fat phobia in in my family that really, really bothers me. And it like, it's like, it comes out in lots of little comments that are really hard to like, like, I hear it and I'm like, that was fat phobic. That was fat phobic, you know. But sometimes in the bigger comments, I'm able to be like, I don't want this here, like, I want this conversation to end right now. Like, I've gotten a little more clear about it, just saying that I don't want it. And I think once I talk to them about it, probably privately and in terms of, like, the mothering messages, like, I think for myself, like, I tend to be a little more like brash. So I think like, I might come out to like, if I'm, like, with a group, and they'll, you know, be doing something like, I mean, I don't go to PTA meetings, because I have, like, feelings about PTA meetings, which I talk about in the book, but a group of other parents, like, I might just state what I'm doing. Like, if it's around, like, the day though there's no school, and like, walk away. Like, I'm a little more like that, where I'm just like, I'm not even gonna, gonna hear it. Or, yeah, I think I say things that are like, slightly, like, just like, a tad bit my like, offensive or aggressive or like, have a little bit of that, like, screw you kind of feel to them, and then I won't go away. So I don't, I actually, I'm not. I'm not, um, I'm not advocating that. I just think that that's how I deal with it. I think it's very hard. I think that the people that we're like we are all just like part of the culture, and so like, just like the people that we're around might have ideas that feel like oppressive, PR team ideas. I think that we have them about ourselves, like we have them too. I guess my advice would be like to maybe name them with compassion.

Yeah, Katie, do you want to offer any thoughts on how that lands for you before we close?

Well, I guess what I'm thinking about is just that sense of, Well, it's almost like, like, going into those situations with compassion for yourself too, you know, like that. Okay, this is, this is what I'm doing, and it's, it doesn't have to be good or bad, right? Like, it doesn't have to be judged as good mothering or not good enough mothering. And, yeah, that, that example you gave, are just sort of, like, stating it and walking away, right? Like, sort of going into it with, sort of, like, if this doesn't have to be like, a I passed the test or I didn't right, and sort of yeah, maybe like thinking about that ahead of time and having that compassion for myself, but then also for the other people, right, like that. We're all swimming in these messages. And so of course, sometimes that is going to get passed on or expressed about whatever I'm doing.

Yeah? Yeah, totally, I mean, and I feel it also like, the other way, like, when I do things that, like, might feel more like intensive, like, where I'm like, no, my kid cannot go to the, like, outdoor park movie that the city's putting on that starts at 8pm because my kid is in bed at 8 on the dot, like, and I'm intense about bedtime because that means that's my time. So really, like, I'm intense about my needs being met around, like, having space and having time to myself. Yeah, I just, I think I just feel like, unapologetic about it. I'm just like, yeah, he can't go. My kids go to bed so early, and I leave it at that.

And holding space for yourself, I think, is really important, and making sure that your needs get met too. So so I want to thank you both. I mean, firstly, thank you to Katie for what was obviously such a close reading of the book, and for really kind of going in with me and thinking super, super carefully about how we wanted to use this time and what we wanted to ask. So thank you, Katie, for your time and energy today. Really appreciate it.

Yeah,

And Minna as well. That was my my second thing was Minna, thank you for the book, which obviously resonates so much with parents, right and and we see ourselves in this description. And there was a whole slew of things that we could have talked about around the social context that we would have loved to spend another hour discussing, that we didn't get to but it's there in the book, right? It's not just here's how you fix yourself, it's and we need some cultural support here that we are not getting as well. So Minna, thank you for writing this really important book.

For busy moms like myself I'm obsessed with audiobooks right now, and it's also an audiobook, and I narrate it.

Cool, nice, so listenable when you're walking the dog or doing whatever you do as well. So cool. Thanks for mentioning that.

Thank you so much for having me. This was such a fun interview I've now. I don't think I've ever been interviewed in this way by the two people, the interviewer and and then the the reader. That was, I mean, obviously you read it too, but it was really great. And I just so appreciate both of you and your time.

Awesome. Thank you. And so a link to Minna's book, which is called Mom Rage: The Everyday Crisis of Modern Motherhood and also all of the references from today's episode can be found at YourParentingMojo.com/MomRage.

If you'd like Jen to address the challenge you're having in parenting, just email your one minute video or audio clip to support@YourParentingMojo com and listen out for your episode soon you.