SYPM 020: Preparing for the afterbirth with Renee Reina

 

Jen Lumanlan  00:02

Hi, I’m Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be

 

Jenny  00:09

so do you get tired of hearing the same old interest in podcast episodes? I don’t really But Jen thinks you might. I’m Jenny, a listener from Los Angeles, testing out a new way for listeners to record the introductions to podcast episodes. There’s no other resource out there quite like Your Parenting Mojo, which doesn’t just tell you about the latest scientific research on parenting and child development, but puts it in context for you as well. So you can decide whether and how to use this new information. I listen because parenting can be scary and it’s reassuring to know what the experts think. If you’d like to get new episodes in your inbox along with a free infographic on 13 reasons your child isn’t listening to you and what to do about each one. Sign up at YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe. You can also join the free Facebook group to continue the conversation. Over time you might get sick of hearing me read this intro so come and record one yourself. You can read from a script gents provided or have some real fun with it and write your own. Just go to your parenting mojo.com forward slash record the intro. I can’t wait to hear yours.

 

Jen Lumanlan  01:26

Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. Today we’re going to look at another topic that we can file under things I’d never given a moment’s thought about before Carys was born, which is what those early days at home were going to be like. Looking back on it, I have really have no idea why my preparation for her birth literally stopped at her birth, and didn’t give a moment’s thought to what would happen even in the immediate days afterwards. And I have to say, I felt really lost. I cried every day for the first 10 days. And on day four, it was pretty much continual from start to finish. And thank goodness, my good friend, Michelle had told me there would be a lot of hormone rebalancing on that day, so I knew it was coming. Otherwise, I would have thought I was actually falling apart. Things did get a bit better over the following days. And on day 10, my husband and I had a little celebration at bedtime because it was the first day since she had been born that I didn’t cry. If you’re expecting a baby in the coming months, or if you have one under the age of one, then the right from the start course is designed to give you the information you need to go from just surviving each day to truly thriving. In this course that I run with Hannah and Kelty of upbringing you’ll find information on topics like getting the sleep you both needed to function, making choices about feeding, supporting development, independent play, navigating the difficult sibling relationship if you already have an older child, and so much more. Whether you’re brand new at this parenting thing, or if you have one or more children already, you know things have to be different his time around. The right from the start course will get you out of the midnight googling about all the things that might be wrong with your child and into a sense of calm and confidence that you’ve got this. You’ll meet an amazing group of parents who are on this journey as well, figuring this stuff out alongside you. With support from Hannah and Kelty as well as me, you’ll even be able to join group coaching calls to get all of your questions answered. Parents who have taken the course say firstly, they had no idea that they even needed these group coaching calls, but they really did. And secondly, there’s no resource out there that considers them to be just as important as their baby in this relationship. And as we’ll hear about from my guest today, all of the attention is on the mother when the baby’s on the way, and as soon as the baby is here, the mother is relegated to the background. And their only role is to provide a suitable environment for the baby. And right from the start, we hold you to be just as important and valued person as your baby, and that your baby actually learns really important things when you hold this to be true. Enrollment for right from the start is open now until Wednesday, April 13. And sliding scale pricing is available. And so my guest today in our sharing Your Parenting Mojo episode is Renee Reina of the Mom Room. Welcome, Renee. It’s so great to have you here.

 

Renee  04:24

Thank you for having me. Yeah.

 

Jen Lumanlan  04:26

So what was this transition from not being a parent to being a parent like for you?

 

Renee  04:31

It was a lot. So I had my son. He’s three now. I had him when I was 34 years old. So I had been in grad school living by myself, focusing on myself, setting goals for myself, just focused on those two then having a baby, I took a 12 month maternity leave for my PhD program.

 

Jen Lumanlan  04:53

Because you’re in Canada we should mention.

 

Renee  04:55

Yes, I am Canadian. I know people are always like “12 months?” So, you know, in the first 12 months, I would say things were good. Like, there were lots of things in early postpartum that blew my mind. And that is why I started the blog. I started talking about these things on social media. And then I found “Oh, like, I’m not the only one.” Everyone else thinks the same thing. In the first 12 months, I was very focused on it’s just me, it’s my son, and my husband was working full time. So I had that mindset going into the 12 month maternity leave that I didn’t have anything else to worry about. So that was really nice. And I think something that I wish all moms could experience you know, and have that time to just be like focused on transitioning into motherhood and focusing on your children.

 

Jen Lumanlan  05:48

Yeah, it’s a massive lack, isn’t it? With no guarantee of paid leave in the US, if you’re lucky enough to work for a big company that offers it, you might get it. I think it was three months when I did it. Many companies are now expanding to six months but many parents take three or four days off and then go back to work and they have to come in the bathrooms cafe or restaurant or something. I mean, it’s just horrific.

 

Renee  06:09

In Canada now, we have the option to extend to 18 months and you If you can split the time with your partner, yeah. So like my husband’s self-employed, he’s a surgeon. So that’s not an option for him. But if you work for a company where you have benefits and insurance, you can split the maternity leave or parental leave with your partner. So yeah, it breaks my heart to know that not everyone has that as an option.

 

Jen Lumanlan  06:33

Okay? And so what was birth like for you?

 

Renee  06:37

So I was induced at 38 weeks because Milo was growing fine and then he kind of plateaued. So the thinking was, “let’s get him out in the real world, and you can feed him, and then he’ll, you know, grow up outside of your uterus.” So I was induced at 38 weeks. And I have to say, the labor and delivery part was pretty good. Like, I don’t really have any complaints. I had my husband there. My sister was with me. The scariest part for me was the epidural. To be honest, yeah.

 

Jen Lumanlan  07:12

And Did it meet your expectations? Was it the same kind of birth that people have on TV or?

 

Renee  07:17

No, not at all. So it’s so funny, because that’s something that I talk about because I think a lot of moms feel shame for not feeling this like overwhelming sensation of love and bond. This bond between their babies as soon as they give birth, and that was me, to be honest. When Milo was born, they put him on my chest, and I was literally just like, impartial, like, I was neutral. I was just like, “oh, okay, so this is the little person that was inside of me,” like I had no connection. And it really took a while for me to build that connection. And now that he’s three years old and he’s developing a little personality, like, I find the older he got the more I fall in love with him. And you know, seeing him as his own little person, like it just grew. So it’s something that not a lot of people talk about. And they feel shame, if they don’t feel that at their birth. And I did not have a traumatic labor and delivery, as many people do. I think a lot of people have that expectation going into labor and delivery. And then when it’s not there, they think there’s something wrong with them. And the same goes for early postpartum. A lot of people have a low or depressed mood. Some people have postpartum depression. And so it’s like this conflicting society is telling you that you should be the happiest you’ve ever been. And this is the best time of your life. But you don’t feel that. And if society is saying that, and that’s what everyone else is showing on social media and on TV and, you know, in movies, are you really going to speak up about not being the happiest you’ve ever been? Because, you know, you’re afraid of being judged. And people thinking that? “Oh, she must not like being a mom,” or, you know, “she’s not fit to be a mom.” So yeah, it’s a problem. And this is why I speak out about things like this, because every time I do, the response is overwhelming with people who are like, “Wow, me too.” And, you know, I just love that people can see my content, read all the comments and be like, “Oh, my God, this is such a common thing.”

 

Jen Lumanlan  09:30

Yeah, and you brought me back to the moment when Carys was put on my chest as well. And we have the very first picture of her that was taken. It was her on my chest. And my eyes are screwed up because I’m crying. And the thought that’s in my mind is, well, I don’t hate you. Because I had a difficult relationship with my mom, I was fully prepared to not love her coming out. And I was fortunate as well, and had a relatively medically easy birth, and had absolutely no idea how I was going to feel, and so to have it be neutral was a win for me. That was a real win. And then yeah, absolutely. Those first 10 days, I was so lucky. Actually, a Canadian friend told me about the day four hormone shifts. And I didn’t stop crying the entire day. And if she hadn’t told me that, I mean, where is my doctor on this? Where is all of the support we’re supposed to have to help us understand what’s coming? If she hadn’t told me that, I would have thought there is something deeply wrong with me because I cannot stop crying, and I think on day 10, my husband and I had a little celebration at the end of the day because I hadn’t cried for the first time.

 

Renee  10:26

And to speak about the crying, which I don’t know why this like, left my memory for the first week, every day at 7pm. I would just cry uncontrollably.

 

Jen Lumanlan  10:39

Oh, wow.

 

Renee  10:40

And I remember thinking, you know, I kept going to these doctor’s appointments so that they could measure Milo’s head and stuff. And I was like, what about me? Like, I just gave birth, and I can’t even sit in the doctor’s waiting room. I can’t sit down because I’m in pain, but I’m going to bring my baby there. And everyone’s gonna, like, you know, “oh, like a baby.” And then they’re going to measure his head, and check his testicles, and whatever. And I’m just sitting there like, okay, and I remember my doctor happened to be a young mother herself. She had young kids, and she looked at me in the appointment, and she said, “How are you doing?” And she had a resident with her, and I just broke down crying. Like if she hadn’t just taken the time to be like, “How are you doing?” And looking at me in my eyes. I probably wouldn’t have said anything. Yeah, And you know, I am very self-aware and understand, you know, feelings of anxiety and things like that. So I can imagine what most people go through and are not able to verbalize to their partners, family, or friends when they’re going through a difficult time. And I remember her saying, you know, it’s really common for the first couple of weeks when the sun goes down for women to start crying, because it’s like, scary. You know, your support person has left for the day. You are kind of like relaxing the baby sleeping hoepfully. Now you have time to kind of like, let everything out. It was so interesting. And luckily for me, it ended up going away after the week. But yeah, I’ll never forget every 7pm jeopardy would start and I’m just crying.

 

Jen Lumanlan  12:25

And it wasn’t because the questions were so bad.

 

Renee  12:28

Oh, yeah.

 

Jen Lumanlan  12:30

Yeah, it reminds me actually of a study I read. And I’m not going to be able to quote this precisely. And it was old, which you’ll understand why this is important in a second, but it said something along the lines of was “the biggest predictor of whether doctors,” and of course, it means male doctors, “would provide appropriate care to mothers after a birth was whether or not their wife had a baby.”

 

Renee  12:50

Interesting

 

 

Jen Lumanlan  12:51

It had nothing to do with their training. It was whether their wife, and of course, assuming a cisgender heterosexual partnership had a baby. And so that I think that just speaks to the complete inadequacy of preparation that doctors get in terms of seeing as a complete set as a unit. And that it’s not just all about the baby. But we’re important to in those early days when everybody wants to come and see the baby. That was another challenging period for me. What was that like for you? How did you navigate that?

 

Renee  13:20

This is my favorite topic to talk about. And it always blows up on TikTok when I talk about this topic. So when I was pregnant, in the days leading up to labor and delivery, I suddenly had this feeling like I didn’t really want people at the hospital for sure. So I think it was like my mom and my dad came and visited Milo quickly and then, and my sister was there because she was in the delivery room. Then I went home. My mom was always around. She lived down the street at that time, which was amazing. And my mom was like my chosen support person. I wanted my mom there in my head. I had Milo on a Friday. My husband was back at work on Monday. So my mom was always there, you know, helping with everything. And so, she was kind of like my gatekeeper. Because she would be like, “Do you want people to come over?” I had Milo in my hometown. So all my family was there and people wanted to come visit. And I was like, “No, I don’t want anybody in the house.” I was lucky that my mom was kind of the gatekeeper, like having to answer to people. So I didn’t have people texting me. I didn’t have to say like, “Oh, I’m not really feeling up to it or like make excuses.” She was the one that was staying in contact with everyone. So this lasted for probably a few weeks. You know, every once in a while my mom would check in and I was like, “Nope, I don’t want anybody coming.” It’s really interesting because a few weeks after I gave birth, we had a family function. Someone had passed away, and so I went to the function, and I remember my uncle coming up to me and saying, “Oh, I guess you’re really having a hard time.” And I said, “What? Why are you saying that?” And he’s like, “Oh, just because, you know, you didn’t want people over and stuff.” And I was like, “Well, isn’t this interesting?” You know, because I just gave birth, I don’t want people coming in and visiting. And I just want to be alone and focus on Milo, get into a routine to heal physically. People are assuming that there’s something wrong, that I am having this terrible time. And it wasn’t the case at all. So when that happened, I started to talk about this topic of not wanting visitors after giving birth, because on TV and in movies, people are in and out. And in most people’s situations, people are just in and out like a revolving door. And the moms are just smiling. And it’s, you know, oh, it’s like a happy time for everyone to be there. But for the most part, people, like women, after giving birth do not want visitors. And there’s a difference between a visitor and a support person. I always say like, if I can’t just get up, leave the room and go take a nap. When you’re over or I can’t pass gas in front of you or breastfeed, then you’re not a support person. Again, I talk a lot about this topic. And it breaks my heart to hear women’s stories, because many of them are dealing with postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. They’re struggling to breastfeed, and they have people coming in and out of the house, and they don’t set that boundary. They don’t have the confidence. Maybe their partner is not on board. You know, they’re forcing their parents, like the in-laws, to come over. It’s terrible. And I started to realize, for some reason, as a culture, we do not respect moms in the early postpartum period at all. Yeah, it’s everyone feels entitled, like they get to come and see the baby. And moms, for the most part, don’t want to set that boundary because they feel bad. They don’t want to be judged. They don’t want to stir up conflict in the family. And it’s like, it shouldn’t even be a thing. Her needs, and her wants, should be heard and should be respected.

 

Jen Lumanlan  17:14

Yeah, I’m just thinking back to what my experience was there. I would say we didn’t have the revolving door. But there were definitely people coming over. And it would not even have crossed my mind. I don’t think to check in with myself and ask myself, “Do I want these people to come over?” It was just assumed that because we have a baby, there’s something to see that people should come over. And I remember some friends had a baby. Carys would have been probably two or three. And so they had a baby then. I said, “Should I come over?” And they’re like, “No, we’re okay. We’re just getting into this routine and creating this sort of warm, nurturing little nest around our new baby. And you can come visit at the end of that period. And if you want to bring me some food, awesome. Please leave it on the porch. Thank you so much.” And it was just like, “Whoa, that’s a thing.” I could have done that. And it did not even cross my mind.

 

Renee  18:03

Interesting. I am so passionate about this topic. I would like to create a greeting card that people send out before they give birth. And it just lays everything out. If you want to be supportive, here are the ways that you can support us: Take our pets, leave food on our Uber Eats card, you know, there’s so many things that people can do to support new parents, and going over being in their space and holding the baby doesn’t have to be one of those things. But for some reason, people don’t get it, and you’ll see it in the comments. Whenever I talk about this on TikTok, people get up in arms about it

 

Jen Lumanlan  18:42

Saying what kind of thing?

 

Renee  18:43

Saying like, “Oh my god, big deal. If you want to take a nap, just go in the other room. If you’re breastfeeding, just go in the other room.” and like zero respect. And the interesting thing is that usually these comments are from other mothers.

 

 

 

Jen Lumanlan  18:56

I think that part is really important, right? Because that’s how these kinds of decisions are enforced. This is how we learn what’s okay and what’s not okay. When you put this message out there and 300 people say, “That’s not okay.” Then a new mother who’s watching my thing, well, most people seem to think “that’s not okay.” Whereas people, if you put this message out there and people are supportive, “Yeah, we should have boundaries. Yes, we should respect ourselves,” then maybe that new mother thinks, “Oh, yes, it’s okay for me to have boundaries.” So this is how we learn whether these kinds of things are acceptable in our society or not. And so I think it’s really important that we are super conscious about that, and that we understand what’s happening here, that this is how norms are policed. This is how we as mothers, police, other mothers, and it sort of forced them in a way into doing things that are not okay with them. Because our culture up to this point has said when you have a baby, everybody has to come over and see it.

 

Renee  19:50

Yeah, and 95% of the comments will be people saying things like, “Oh my God, I wish I did this when I gave birth.” Yeah, or like they are telling me their story. And then there’s the odd one that’s like, “This is cruel to the grandparents.” You know? And it’s like, “What about being cruel to the mom that just gave birth?” Like, what about that? I don’t know why people don’t consider that. It’s like moms, you have the baby. Everyone’s focused on you when you’re pregnant. How are you doing? How are you feeling? And you have the baby. And it’s like, pushed aside. Okay, baby, baby, baby. And like, nobody cares about the mom’s needs or wants.

 

Jen Lumanlan  20:27

Alright, so you’ve mentioned your mom a fair bit in the last few minutes. You haven’t mentioned your husband so much.

 

Renee  20:32

My husband?

 

Jen Lumanlan  20:33

Where is he in this picture of these first few months?

 

Renee  20:35

Yeah, so the first few months. So, as I said, he’s a surgeon. He was back at work on Monday. In Canada, you’re self-employed if you’re a physician. And I don’t know if it’s the same thing in the States. So you’re not entitled to something like parental leave, basically. Yeah, so it’s funny because people always talk about, “Oh, Canada, the parental leave is so amazing.” But really, if you’re self-employed, which many people are, then you don’t get it. So I had Milo on Friday. My husband went back to work on Monday. He was so involved, like when he would come home. This was our routine. And people listening might feel like their jaw might hit the floor. But this is what worked for us. Because after a couple of weeks, we started formula for Milo. And so my husband was able to do the nighttime feedings. And so what we would do is around 6 pm, he would get home from work, like, around 4:30. So at 6 pm, I would go to bed. And so, between six and midnight, I would get a solid six hours of sleep. And my husband would be with Milo in the living room, doing all the stuff that you have to do with a newborn. And then at midnight, my husband would come into the bedroom and put my Milo into the bassinet beside where I was. And then when Milo would get up overnight, I would do the feedings. And my husband, he can sleep through anything, so he would just sleep. And if Milo had a big diarrhea explosion or something where I needed help, obviously, he would help, but that’s what we did for the early months. And it was comforting, because I knew that I was going to have a solid six hours of sleep no matter what. And so I was never overtired the next day. You know, even if I was up multiple times between midnight and the morning, when Milo would get up, it didn’t matter because I had a solid stretch of sleep. So that’s what we did in the early weeks and months. And then, once Milo got a little bit older and he was in his nursery to sleep, I would sleep in a guest bedroom. I would go to bed at like 9:30 or 10. And my husband would sleep with the monitor in our bedroom. And the reason we did that, and some people are probably like, “What, her husband slept with the monitor?” Yes. And I’ll tell you why. For us, it worked. Because when Milo would wake up in the middle of the night, it’s like a cortisol spike, I tried to explain it. And my husband thinks this is unbelievable that I respond this way. But when Milo starts crying on the monitor, I can hear him. It’s almost like that feeling when you’re about to rear-end the car in front of you, and you get that like rush of adrenaline. That is me when Milo starts crying in the middle of the night. So it’s really hard to come down from that and get a good night’s sleep when he’s doing that, like two or three times a night. My husband, on the other hand, can get up, go give him some formula, and instantly fall back asleep. I’m so jealous of his sleep, like, you know. So that’s what we did. And that is what worked for us.

 

Jen Lumanlan  23:34

For regular listeners of the podcast, I just want to say what a beautiful illustration that is of meeting everybody’s needs. right? When we have a baby, and I put myself in this category as well, we sort of think we need to get a baby onto our schedule. We need to get the baby to go to sleep at a reasonable time so that we can have some quiet time. So we can do some things that are important to us. And that has to happen in this certain window of the day when, if we actually look at what’s happening here, the baby has a need for sleep and also for food. And to have someone attentive when they need it, you have a big need for rest. Your partner has a big need for rest. And through a pretty unconventional arrangement, you’re able to get that need met, your partner gets their needs met, and the baby gets their needs met. And yes, maybe some other needs, like connection with your partner, you’re a little bit like ships passing in the night for a period of time. I can just imagine the impact that had on you in terms of feeling as though you could navigate things effectively as a new parent by getting six hours of uninterrupted sleep every night. When we see these things from a perspective of what is my need here? What are the other people’s needs in this relationship? Then things that didn’t seem possible when it was just how to get the baby to sleep so that I can have some self-care time become possible. Thank you for walking us through that. And that’s not going to be the right arrangement for everybody. But when we can apply that kind of thinking to this, we can find other solutions to work and, yeah, sleeping in the guest room. We have come up with a similar way of working that doesn’t involve a guest room, and we don’t have a guest room. But yeah, I wear earplugs at night time because I’m super sensitive. And I wake up at every single sound. And it takes me an hour to get back to sleep. And my husband doesn’t wake up as easily. And it takes him three minutes to get back to sleep. So when Carys calls in the night, and she calls Mama, it’s not Mama she’s getting. And so we’ve achieved the same outcome with different methods, and it meets everybody’s needs, even though it’s a bit unconventional. So thank you for illustrating that for us so beautifully.

 

 

 

Renee  25:30

You’re welcome. To me, I look at it as a team. Here’s the goal. Here’s everyone’s needs, like how can we function as a team to have the best outcome possible for everybody? Yeah, you know, that was our situation. But obviously, every family is going to have their own thing that works for them. And I like how you say it’s unconventional, because I think a lot of times people are afraid to start living in a way that is unconventional because of what other people are going to think or they’re afraid of being judged. So yeah, I encourage every family to sit down and actually think about it. How can we do things where everybody’s needs are being met? And let’s start living in that way. Whether or not someone else is going to look at us and be like, “What, what are they doing?” Yeah, I talk a lot about sleeping separately from my husband, because I’m a super light sleeper. We have guest rooms. He’s on call a lot. So he gets called throughout the night. His alarm in the morning is like, you know, it sounds like the world’s ending. We have two little dogs, and there’s so many reasons why we sleep separately. And that’s also a huge topic on Tiktok. People are like me too, but I would never say it out loud because I’m afraid of what other people are going to think. But for us, like we’re happily married, we love each other. It’s not sleeping physically side by side is not an indicator of having a good healthy relationship. And I remember reading this article about I’ve done episodes on sleeping separately. This article was saying, you know, “Lots of couples do sleep side by side, and they have a terrible relationships.” So you can’t look at that as like, “Oh, there’s something wrong in my marriage because we’re not sleeping separately.” Sleep is so important, especially once you have kids, because it’s not in your control anymore. You know, so you almost become obsessed with sleep. So that is just what works for us. And he still sleeps with the monitor.

 

Jen Lumanlan  27:33

So, yeah. But if we look at our media, do we ever see parents in happy relationships sleeping apart? No, we don’t know. And when nobody talks about it, it just seems as though, well, nobody else is doing it. So that’s not really an option, even though it’s an option that meets our needs and just taking the unconventional idea a bit further. What’s actually unconventional in human history is two people trying to raise a child together with very little outside support, right? Yeah, I mean, you’re super lucky to have your mom, with whom it seems like you have an amazing relationship, super close by. For many parents, they don’t have that. And so they’re trying to be everything to this child, which is not the way we evolved to raise children.

 

Renee  28:10

Yeah, I talk a lot about the modern day village. So my mom and I moved to the Toronto area. So when Milo was almost two years old, so now we’re like a four-hour drive from my parents, but I still see them often because my job is so flexible, I can visit and they can come here. But yeah, the modern day village, like sometimes a lot of people, they don’t live near family. So you’re not having, you know, meals brought over, you’re not sharing meals with other households. A lot of people don’t even talk to their neighbors or know who they are. That’s just how the world works right now. So I always say my village when Milo was really small was the wiggles, uber eats, his teachers at daycare, like those people are a part of your village, sports like athletic coaches. So yeah, it’s changed. And I think a lot of people are ashamed to be like, we order in food a lot. The way the world works now and how people’s lives are, that has to happen. And it shouldn’t be something that we feel shame over.

 

Jen Lumanlan  29:14

Yeah, it’s not something to feel shame over. And also, I think it’s super important to recognize. I mean, this is White supremacy and capitalism at work here, right? That White supremacy divides us It keeps us separate. It says, “You stay in your lane, and I’m going to stay in my lane. And if I see you struggling, maybe I’ll offer help once.” And if you sort of put your smile on it like you’re supposed to and say “I’m okay,” then I’m never going to ask again. And for you, maybe you’re paddling 3000 miles an hour underneath the surface, but on top, you’re projecting this aura of everything’s fine and I’m coping even if things are falling apart inside. And then, of course, capitalism comes in and sells us the services that we need to try to feel whole, when actually what we need is connection with other people and support from other people. And yeah, I’m super interested in ways that we can break down the silos that we find ourselves in that say everybody needs to be in their own box and behind their own fence, in their own walls, buying all of their own stuff, and how can we move beyond that to sharing and being a community with others? Yeah, because I think that would benefit parents and children and the fabric of society as a whole.

 

Renee  30:18

It’s interesting, because nowadays, I feel like a lot of people find their communities online, as opposed to, you know, one-on-one or real-life in-person contact, especially with the pandemic, you know, like the early childhood centers, like those were shut down, like nobody had anything. And so now it’s even more like people feel isolated and alone.

 

Jen Lumanlan  30:42

Yeah, and linked to this. I know, this is something that you’ve talked about a lot, and a bit of a non sequitur is this idea of maternal gatekeeping. Because I think that that’s another way to create silos and to set up this condition where I’m the only person who can get this done competently. And I think that this has massive implications for the ways that workloads get shared through the rest of our relationship through the rest of our child’s lives. Can you talk a little bit about how you see that and maybe how that’s played out in your relationship and what we can do to shift out of the maternal gatekeeper role?

 

Renee  31:11

Yes. So I’m going to tell you an experience that happened to me a couple months ago, and I shared it on TikTok. The feedback was incredible. And I don’t know, maybe you can help me with the terminology. So I call it “murder tendencies.” But maybe that’s not the right term. So what happened was, my husband and I were downstairs, it was after dinner, and the plan was, “Okay, we’re going to go upstairs, my husband is going to do bath time, and I’m going to go get in the shower.” So that was the plan. And as we’re walking upstairs, my husband just like walks past the bathroom, he goes into our closet, and he’s like, organizing his clothes for the next day or something. And I’m with Milo. So I’m like, you know, I roll. Okay, I’m going to bring Milo start the bath. And the longer I’m in the bathroom, giving Milo his bath. I’m getting irritated. And so my husband, it’s such a funny story. This happens all the time. My husband, 5-10 minutes later, walks past the bathroom, and he just casually says, “Oh, are you going to go have your shower?” And do you know how badly I wanted to say, “Nevermind, I’ll just do the bath myself.” Like, forget about it. I’ll shower after he goes to bed. That is what I wanted to say. But I caught myself and I was like, “Renee, you know that you want to go have a shower? Why don’t you just get up say, oh, yeah, go have your shower.” And that’s what I did. And it was a non-issue. And we had a great evening. If I would have responded in that way, he would have been like, you know, taken aback by my attitude and why I was mad. And then I would have probably given him the silent treatment. And, you know, maybe talked about it a few days later. But in that moment, it’s like, would you call that a murder tendency? Where?

 

Jen Lumanlan  32:59

Yeah, probably.

 

Renee  33:00

Yeah, and so I don’t know if that has a connection to maternal gatekeeping. But I see maternal gatekeeping in little things for me, like I’m sure some people have on a bigger scale. But for me, it’s like, make sure his pull-up is put on properly. And I’m like checking after my husband puts it on. I check it to make sure like the edges are picked out or, you know, I like washing his hair. I don’t like the way my husband does it. For me, it’s like I’m self-aware and I understand what I’m doing those things. And so I will let it go. And I’m like, whatever. If he has soap in his hair tomorrow, then so be it. I don’t want to use my mental energy to be constantly supervising what my husband is doing. And you know what, at the end of the day, the outcome is going to be the same whether I do it or my husband does it. And I know that rationally, but it’s hard to just like, let it go in the moment. And I think what happens is, a lot of times, moms feel that way. And then they kind of end up isolating their partner, and their partner loses confidence in being able to do the bedtime routine. And then so they stopped doing it. Because if you’re trying to do something and someone is constantly, like, criticizing or nagging you, you’re eventually going to be like, “Well, I guess I can’t do this properly, and just let them do it.” And then that leads to a whole bunch of other issues. So it’s something that I definitely do here and there. But I try and catch myself because, you know, at the end of the day, I want to be able to up and go somewhere for a full day or a few nights. And you have to know that your partner is able to do everything that you would be doing.

 

 

Jen Lumanlan  34:41

Yeah, I’ve just been doing a lot of research on this topic. So the physical reaction that I felt when you’re talking about you’re there giving Milo a bath. Like I know what that is like. Yeah, and I think that this is really important because we see ourselves as the only people who can get something done. on and get it done the right way. And that means we have to do everything. I’m actually a big believer in natural consequences in this arena, and I will make the assessment is the natural consequences that happen here are going to negatively affect me in a big way. So if my partner doesn’t put the diaper on properly, am I the one who’s trying to leave the house with a baby in a diaper explosion is going to have a negative impact on me? Okay, then yeah, I’m probably going to check the diaper. If they’re the ones leaving the house with a baby, I’m kind of willing to see what happened to me. My daughter is seven now. The other day, my husband and my daughter were getting ready to leave. They were going out for the afternoon. And I realized they didn’t have any snacks. And I thought, “That’s a ballsy move.” Going out for an afternoon with no snacks. And I realized if she gets hungry, they’re going to come back earlier. And my workday is going to get cut short. So I ran and got some bananas, and I went downstairs. And I said, “Here’s some snacks,” so that I knew that she would have something if the worst came to worst. If I wasn’t relying on that time for work, I’d be like, “Okay, we’ll see what happens when she gets hungry, how they’re going to deal with it.” So, I think that that can be really good for our partner to experience. And also good for us. I mean, we have talked about control and how control sort of masks a lot of stuff that’s going on underneath us and how it can be a fear, like a fear for our child’s well-being. Is our child really going to suffer? If they have a diaper explosion? Probably not much. So why do we need to check the diaper every time?

 

Renee  36:21

Yeah, I know. I’m working on it. It’s like, it’s so funny. And the funny thing is, if he doesn’t put the pull up on properly and Milo happens to have an accident overnight, he sleeps with the monitor. So I need to just let go.

 

Jen Lumanlan  36:36

Right? I mean, you got your perfect natural consequence, right there. It’s not your thing to deal with. So you don’t have to be the one nagging because he’s the one who has to deal with the consequences if something happens that you would prefer not to happen, as long as you’re not the one who ask to do the laundry the following day.

 

Renee  36:51

Yeah, for sure.

 

Jen Lumanlan  36:52

Yeah, so I think it can be enormously freeing for parents to maybe let go of this a little bit so that we’re not the only ones providing all of this care. Because I think when we take that to its logical conclusion, where that ends up is the partners, like, “Since I can’t do anything, right, I’m not going to do anything.” And then the mother is like, “Well, I do all the work. And maybe sometimes I have a full-time job.” Well, this is something that’s causing amazing resentment building up in me. And this is either going to be something I live with until I can get out of this marriage, or I’m going to end this marriage now. And that’s not good for anybody, right?

 

Renee  37:26

Yeah, so when Milo was a year old, I think. I had to go out of town to Ottawa to defend my dissertation. And we had these periods of time where I left Milo with my husband for days at a time. My husband was super confident now that he could do everything. I was super confident in my husband’s abilities. We also do bedtime routines every single night together, since day one. We both are going through the motions. And if I left for a week, like, my husband would be fine, because we are pretty good at doing everything together and communicating, too.

 

Jen Lumanlan  38:09

So what advice would you leave parents who maybe have an infant at home and they’re still sort of in the thick of this right now? Or maybe they’re still expecting and the baby’s not here yet. And if they’re anything like me, they spent days iterating their birth plan and zero time thinking about what was going to happen afterwards. What advice would you have? Maybe there’s different advice for each of those two groups. What would you like to leave with them?

 

Renee  38:30

For the expecting, don’t focus so much on labor and delivery, because that is such a temporary moment in time. And people put all their energy and their planning and focus on labor and delivery. And then you’re in the early days of postpartum? And you’re like, “Why did I spend so much time and mental energy preparing for that?” You know, like, obviously, be educated about labor and delivery and all that stuff. But really focus on getting yourself set up for the early postpartum days. Think about whether or not you’re going to want to have visitors and set the boundaries. Prepare your family and friends for, you know, “I might not be open to having visitors. Here are ways that you can support us.” So for sure, prepare for the early postpartum days if you’re expecting. And then for parents with infants, I would say do what works best for your family. And I can’t stress that enough. And I think there’s so much information about parenting online and there’s so much about like best practices and parents not wanting to choose a certain route because they are worried about what other people are going to think, like whether it be sleep training or co-sleeping or formula feeding, baby led weaning, all these things. And it’s like, at the end of the day, everyone’s situation is so unique that what is considered best practice is not necessarily best practice for your family. Best practice means best practice when all the other variables are neutral and will allow for that best practice. So a good example from my experience is baby-led weaning. I was like, “all about it.” I bought all the books like I was ready to do it. The very first time I tried it, I was like, “Okay, well, we’re not doing this because I am too anxious of a person.” And so it didn’t work for us. Like, did I want to spend the multiple times a day where I had to feed my son being anxious and, like, dreading the next time I had to sit there and watch him eat? “No,” so it didn’t work for us. And that’s okay. He’s eating fine now, and he’s three years old. So just kind of like sitting down, really working through parenting choices, figuring out what works best for you. And being confident in that decision. Like, confidence is huge. And it will serve you so well. Because when you get these offhanded comments, or you read, you know, someone shaming someone else online for doing something that you do, you’re just it’s gonna roll off your shoulders.

 

Jen Lumanlan  41:05

Because I know I’ve made the right decision for me and for my family.

 

Renee  41:08

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So that’s my advice.

 

Jen Lumanlan  41:12

Okay. And so folks who want more of what they’re hearing from you, where can we find you?

 

Renee  41:16

So I am active on Tiktok and Instagram at ReneeReina_. The podcast is called the Mom Room Podcast. And on Tuesdays, I have episodes that I do with guests. And then on Thursdays, I do solo episodes, where I just kind of talk about something that’s going on at the moment, like in my life. So yeah, I have an episode with Jen coming up soon. So that’s where they can find me.

 

Jen Lumanlan  41:44

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here and talking through this stuff that wouldn’t have even occurred to me, right? We shouldn’t necessarily have people around in the first weeks after our babies are born. That would not even have crossed my mind when I was in that phase. And so I think it’s so important that parents know that you have choices, that you can check in with yourself and see what feels right to you. And if you want to be socializing with people, socialize with people, and if you don’t, then you don’t have to. Yeah, the more that parents, I think, can know that just because our culture says we do one thing after a certain thing happens doesn’t have to be the case, the better off we’re going to be, the happier we’re going to be, the more fulfilled we’re going to be. So thank you for being out there and dealing with the negative messages and information. I’m glad that they’re mostly outweighed by the people who are supportive.

 

Renee  42:31

If people are out there, and you don’t want visitors, and people are pushing themselves on you to come visit, talk to me. Just give me a call. That’d be my new career in life. I’m going to be like, “Bats are for mothers.”

 

Jen Lumanlan  42:46

Yeah, I can already see that. That would be an amazing, successful service. Totally. So thank you so much for being here tonight.

 

Renee  42:53

Thank you.

 

Jenny  42:55

Hi, this is Jenny from Los Angeles. We know that you have a lot of choices about where you get information about parenting, and we’re honored that you’ve chosen us as we move toward a world in which everyone’s lives and contributions are valued. If you’d like to help keep the show ad free, please consider making a donation on the episode page that Jen just mentioned. Thanks again for listening to this episode of The Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Don’t forget to head to YourParentingMojo.com/recordtheintro to record your own messages for the show.