SYPM 008: Fostering Positive Sibling Relationships with Future Focused Parenting

Jen Lumanlan: 00:02

Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo podcast where I critically examine strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. In this series of episodes called Sharing Your Parenting Mojo, we turn the tables and hear from listeners. What have they learned from the show that's helped their parenting? Where are they still struggling? And what tools can we find in the research that will help?

Jen Lumanlan: 00:26

If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a free guide to Seven Parenting Myths We Can Safely Leave Behind, Seven Fewer Things to Worry About, subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you'll join us.

Jen Lumanlan: 00:59

Hello, and welcome to the sharing Your Parenting Mojo segment of the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. And for those of you who are watching on YouTube, you're seeing a bit of a different background than you normally see. Welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Studios East which until three days ago was my sister-in-law's bedroom. And we have a couple of guests today who apparently usually record together in here as laundry room which you can see–you got to see the sound panels. She did a nice little pan for me before we get started. And I could see her washer and I guess they're both normally in there. But now due to COVID, they're recording separately. So lots of different locations today. And so my guests are Kira Dorrian and Deana Thayer and they co-founded the Future Focused Parenting Organization which is a groundbreaking parenting philosophy that starts with the end in mind, encouraging families to make intentional parenting choices. And together they co-host the Raising Adults podcast where they discuss various topics related to parenting with a long range view. And both Kira and Deana are parent coaches and are passionate about repairing families to thrive rather than just survive on their parenting journey. So welcome to the laundry room. And to those of you who should be in the laundry room.

Daena Thayer: 02:09

Thanks for having us Jen.

Jen Lumanlan: 02:11

And so I was super interested in talking with you because when we were thinking, I've been listening to your show for a while and I was thinking we should get together and do something. And I thought what could we do? You have a number of children between you. So when you proposed we talked about siblings I said, “Yes, we should talk about siblings.” So I wonder if you could tell us maybe just a little bit about your families and where you are and how many children you have.

Kira Dorrian: 02:34

You want to go first Darna?

Daena Thayer: 02:36

Sure, yeah, sure. We both have something that's a little bit unique in our situation. So with mine, I'm in a blended family. So that means I've got some biological children but I also have some stepchildren and together my husband and I have a total of five. So the other thing that is unique is ours are on the older end. So in Kira and I's podcast, we're able to kind of bring both elements. You know, she's got earlier grade schoolers, which she'll talk about in a moment. And then I'm a little bit further down the road and can talk about, “Hey, here's what went great.” But also, “Hey, don't copy me on this.” So we've got five children that are actually today the youngest turned 17. So they are 17, 18, 18, 20 and 21.

Jen Lumanlan: 03:20

Wow.

Kira Dorrian: 03:22

I got a little misty. I’m used to you saying– Oh my goodness. Yeah and I'm Kyra Dorian, and I have twins. So that's my unique funzy that I bring to the table. So I have boy girl twins. They are nine years old and in the third grade.

Jen Lumanlan: 03:32

Awesome. All right. So you have lots of information for us and experience to share with us on raising siblings and I'm wondering if you can start by maybe telling us what you've done in your own families; and also kind of how you counsel families as well to start laying the foundation for positive sibling relationships which I know is sort of this big hairy audacious goal as it were for many families.

Kira Dorrian: 03:58

Yeah, I think it feels like a lot and especially depending on your own sibling relationships. It's funny because Jen, I think you and I are similar but different in this way. I'm an only child and I have twins. And one of the things you know you talk about is the fact that you had like no parenting instincts. I have no sibling instincts, right. I mean one of the things that was scariest we were only planning to have one child. And what was one of the scariest things was I actually had no frame of reference for this. But I think you know, I have a mental health background. And one of the things that we talk about a lot when we're working with families is really thinking about the fact that the sibling relationship is actually the first peer relationship. And so what you set up in your home is going to set them up for all their future peer relationships: both friendships, colleagues, romantic relationships, you know, friends on the schoolyard. Like, this is how they're going to learn how to engage with someone approximately their own age. And so part of laying that foundation is having that in mind that I really have to pay attention to how I'm encouraging them to problem solve together, how am I encouraging them to use conflict resolution–all these things so that they are not just set up to have a great sibling dynamic, they're actually set up for all their future conflicts with peers.

Jen Lumanlan: 05:17

Okay.

Daena Thayer: 05:18

It's so true.

Jen Lumanlan: 05:19

And no pressure.

Daena Thayer: 05:21

None at all. No, not at all. And there are a couple practical ways to do this. Obviously when we're talking with families who have youngers and maybe are expecting their second, third, and so on baby, you have a really unique opportunity to set this up in advance with that sibling who's already there–that big brother, big sister–to kind of get them involved to frame the way you talk about this; to use the words curious, describing, and thinking about, wow, this is their first peer relationship the first time that they're not just interacting with a grown up. And you get to set the stage for that at home. So we really recommend, you know, start before the birth if you can, or like in our case, before the remarriage. And we did. We involved our kids in that and talked with them about, hey, you're about to add some siblings to your world that you didn't even ask for. And so how can we coach them through that? And with youngers it's true especially if they're really little, they might not totally understand that. But there are some ways they could help: maybe they could pick out a fun stuffed animal for the nursery; or maybe they can, you know, feel the belly and you can talk about the baby being in there. And they can just be a little bit involved in advance. And of course, if they're older they can be super involved with helping pick things out with talking about what they are gonna need. We often suggest that families ask the older sibling, maybe, what are your special toys that you don't want the baby to mess with? And we'll figure out a safe place to tuck those away. So they also feel like you know, I'm not going to be just lost in the shuffle here. What I need and what I want still really matters. So we really recommend that starting in advance peace and let them have a say and if they can but also framing it in a positive way: if it's picking out a gift, if it's picking out something for the nursery. My kids they picked out how they wanted to meet each other and they wanted it to involve food. So we literally, the first time that all the kids met even while my husband and I were dating, we went and got cupcakes and it was like that just kind of softened it and made it less intimidating. We weren't just expected to sit and chat, it was like we're eating. It's involving them that is really helpful but starting in advance to letting them know what's coming really helps kids not feel so blindsided.

Jen Lumanlan: 07:23

Yeah. And I would think that, I mean, one of the questions I see coming up in parenting books over and over again is firstly, parents will, you know, oh, I'm expecting. How am I going to prepare my child? Okay, so we walk through that and then everything's okay for a little bit. And then after some period of time we see that there's conflict. There is tension in that relationship, right. And then the older child is being aggressive, is maybe being aggressive towards the younger sibling, or maybe towards the parents. And the parents are like, help, I don't know what to do about this. I keep telling my child not to hit the baby but they keep hitting the baby. What do you normally advise in those kinds of situations?

Daena Thayer: 08:00

Yeah, when you have a struggle like that where you see the other thing, you can see all the things you mentioned absolutely. But we also can sometimes see regression where maybe some substage and age appropriate things that have already happened like potty training or being in their own bed just go totally backwards. And that's really kind of tricky to unpack. But that's why we're saying what we're saying, so much of this is about laying the foundation well early and then it doesn't mean those things won't still crop up. But you might be able to, while maybe not eliminate, definitely mitigate some of those responses. And then it's about talking about sibling relationships in this really positive way. And one of the ways we kind of suggest that is leading with vocabulary. I'm the self professed word nerd of the co-host. And so we talk a lot about how words are, how we create meaning, and how important that is. So if you do have a child who's starting to lash out or is starting to express some resentment, we've got to communicate, communicate, communicate. That is big. It doesn't mean there won't need to be other boundaries in place and I'll let Kira pop in with some of that too. But I just really want to suggest to parents not to overlook how we speak about the sibling relationship. And that means it's okay and encouraged to say things like, “You know what, your brother or sister [fill in the blank], your first friend, and they are going to be around even after we're not.” If you have older kids who can understand that, that is an important thing to talk about. When there's no longer this parent-child dynamic; maybe you're not close with your co-workers; maybe some of your friends have moved away; you still have your sibling. And the relationship you cultivate there early can really turn into a beautiful lifelong friendship. And so framing that as a friendship is really huge. And the other thing that we encourage vocabulary wise is when you do see those squabbles and disagreements like you mentioned because it's a ‘when’ not an ‘if’ it'll happen. It is talking about that in a way that's positive as well, not saying, oh, you're gonna fight, you know, not calling it a fight, not leaning into name-calling. Talking about one of you is acting like a brat or something. How we speak really matters. We're modeling constantly. But saying something like, it looks like you might need some help with some problem solving. Well, that's accurate. There's maybe a problem here. We need to unpack it and solve it. And of course, this is gonna come a little bit more along the way with older ones. When they're little and less understanding, we're handing them the vocabulary: “Here's what I'm noticing. It looks like you're frustrated,” you know, those kinds of things. But when they're older, absolutely unpacking that in a way that's positive and also being available to help with that. It looks like you might need some help with some problem solving. And we're going to talk in a little bit, Kira and I, about just ways you can do that when you do, maybe, need to intervene on a squabble because you're right, we also need to keep everybody safe. And little ones can sometimes lash out that resentment they're feeling or that feeling of oh, maybe I've been put on the backburner, sometimes comes out in some undesirable behavior. So Kira, I'm sure you have more to add to.

Kira Dorrian: 10:53

Yeah, and I think you took me right there. And I think that one of the things that we see parents do a lot, it comes from such a good place but is sometimes a little bit misdirected, is they want the older child to be sensitive to the fact that the younger child doesn't know. You know and you're the big kid. And they don't know yet. And that is absolutely valid and absolutely right. But what we also have to do is acknowledge how hard that must be for the older child. Because if we don't do that, that's where that resentment comes from: “I just keep being expected to put up with this behavior, right? This little person is stealing my toys, and my parent just keeps telling me, well, you're the big kid.” They don't understand without acknowledging that, you know, that must feel really hard that you have to keep putting up with that. I appreciate that you're trying to understand but I'd like to give you a big kid opportunity to [fill in the blank]. Acknowledge and validate what they're experiencing. Because if we don't do that piece, it's going to be really hard for the older child to not be resentful because they don't feel like anyone's actually noticing what's happening for them.

Daena Thayer: 11:54

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's a step that gets skipped, I think, a lot–the acknowledgement of the feelings first leading into, then here's what we need.

Jen Lumanlan: 12:02

Yeah, yeah, I definitely see that, too. And when we're working on solving problems with children, parents tend to want, I mean, they want the problem solved, right? So they jump right to the problem solving part and aren't sure why the child doesn't want to engage. And the child won't propose any solutions. The child won't engage with any of my solutions. And well, what are the reasons for that? Well, it's probably because they weren't heard. They don't feel heard in themselves that their experience is valid and valued by us. And when they do feel that then they're more likely to be able to engage with us and be willing to engage with us in developing solutions to what is essentially a problem between two people, right? It's not a bratty kid hitting the baby. It's a problem that we have in this family that we need to figure out.

Daena Thayer: 12:45

And as those kids grow, if from a young age they have felt constantly seen, heard and validated, and their experience has been constantly normalized, that doesn't mean you put up with bad behavior but you can acknowledge feelings and validate those feelings and still set a great boundary. But if they feel that way then when we move into those teen years and they get older, they feel really safe to come to you with how they're feeling because they've had a lifetime of being seen, heard and validated. So it's not only like gonna impact that sibling dynamic, it's also gonna impact the dynamic between parent and child.

Jen Lumanlan: 13:16

Yeah, which is so important going into those years, right, when we're playing the long game. And we're thinking, okay, well how do we want these teenage years to be when my kid is now old enough and big enough that I can't physically remove them from a situation–force them to comply with me? There has to be something else there in our relationship that makes them want to comply with and work with me on figuring out solutions to the problems between us. Okay, so we're sort of working towards squabbles. If we’re kind of moving out of the baby years and the fact that they probably not always, it's not inevitable. The research says that this difficult period is not inevitable. It doesn't happen to everybody. But if it has happened to you and you've kind of been in that period where there has been resentment and your younger child is now maybe old enough to stick up for themselves a bit, then we start to think of it as a wobble or a disagreement between two people. What's your approach to those kinds of things?

Kira Dorrian: 14:07

Well, I think I'm going to talk a little bit about the theoretical and Daena is going to talk about the practical. So from a theoretical perspective, in terms of parental mindset, you know, so much of empowering are actual choices. What are we thinking as we're making those choices? So Daena and I on our show we always start with our why we have to understand, why we're doing what we're doing, in order to feel empowered to actually go do that thing. So in terms of the ‘why’ behind the squabbles, we really want to be thinking about things like empathy. We are teaching our children empathy, and again, this is the first pure relationship and we want them to be empathetic with their future schoolmates, and with their future colleagues and you know, friends, etc. So the concept of coming into problem solving with a goal to teach empathy: I want to help you understand how stealing that toy made your sister feel; and I want your sister to understand maybe why you felt you needed to steal that toy. If everyone can kind of understand where everybody's coming from, we're a lot more likely to solve this problem. So teaching empathy skills by asking great questions, Daena and I are big fans of questions, and helping kids talk and share their feelings because this is also a wonderful thing to be teaching. I mean, sibling squabbles, honestly, in some ways are one of the best opportunities to really show Your Parenting Mojo and embrace the opportunity for teachable moments because they really have everything in them, really teaching active listening. So you know, oh, I can see that you're not looking at your brother as he's communicating how he's feeling. Can we please look him in the eyes? It's really important people feel seen when they're sharing their feelings. It’s just a great example of how you teach active listening–asking a question: “How did it make you feel when your sister took that toy?” It’s a great way of helping the brother, sister understand what's going on for that child and then flipping to, “Did you know it would make her feel sad when you took that toy, right?” Allowing this dialogue that when they're little, you're going to be really walking them through. It’s going to develop into them internally understanding how to do that for themselves. So I'm going to kick it to Daena ‘cause she has some amazing, just practical ways. Like that sounds great, Kira. What does that look like? Daena's gonna tell you that.

Daena Thayer: 16:13

No. But that really is important and to cure a spot is an important thing, too. This also takes the blame out of it. And as a parent, I think that's important to recognise we're not trying to figure out who's at fault and why it happened. We are a fan of asking really good questions, but, ‘Why did you do that?’ and, ‘Who started it?’ are never on the list of good questions. So really, what we want to help our kids do is be empathetic enough and skilled enough to finish it, not to start it but to solve the problem and come back together in good relationship with their sibling. And of course, I'm going to start again with the words and cure a spot on. We talked about this all the time. At the beginning, you will probably have to handle them those words, “Would you like to ask your brother how it made them feel when you took the toy?” They're going to need some help kind of going along through that conversation. And so we might need to hand them that vocabulary, even the feeling vocabulary, because a lot of words for feelings are really big like frustrated and exasperated. They're not going to come up with that. They're just like, I’m mad, you know. And so kind of peeling back the layers for them as we walk them through the conversation. Let's be cognizant of our own words and help hand them the words to do this. But there's also two, just quick things I want to mention that sometimes get overlooked, kind of like here talked about what that normalizing an empathy piece before asking for a behavior. This gets skipped to and that's thinking about location and posture and the stance of the issue that we're trying to solve, literally. And so when I'm thinking about solving a conflict, I'm going to look at the levels of my children and I mean with their bodies. So if you have one child standing over a sibling and pointing and looking down and yelling at them, that is really intimidating and scary for that other child. And it also doesn't put them on an equal footing to be able to assert themselves and share how they're feeling. So one thing I've always encouraged is that getting those siblings on the same level before we problem solve whether that means we're both gonna sit down or we invite the other one to stand up, whatever it is, so that they're literally– while they might not be eye to eye. If their height is different, they're literally on the same level. Nobody's over each other. And that's visual way that we create a picture of what's actually happening figuratively. No one is over each other. Everyone's feelings in the situation matter. And let's try to solve this problem together. So thinking about levels and watching for that is really helpful. And again Kira said this beautifully: it's also really helpful if you just talk about what you're noticing around that, you know what, I noticed that you're standing up and your sister's sitting down. Could you join her on the floor and then let's talk about this? So it's really easy to do. And then a second one is location. I think even as adults, we know sometimes how just a change of scenery can be so helpful. And just getting a location change, it's the same thing for younger kiddos. And I think all the way up sometimes just the break it takes just to even walk somewhere different might calm you down, give you a chance to take a breath, count to 10, whatever you like to do internally, whatever you'd like to help your children do. But that break to go somewhere different is helpful. So something I really love that I first saw it in the Montessori classroom but can easily be done at home is called a “peace table.” There's literally a little table and some chairs and you go there to solve a problem. That's where we go to make peace. And so families can set this up in their home. And again literally just the walk there could be really helpful. But there's also this expectation that it brings that kids now know, oh, when we go there, we come out with everything being better. And we're friends again and we've solved the problem. We've moved past it. So there's almost this anticipation and expectation that that's where we work it out. And so if the peace table doesn't resonate with your family, I mean, certainly it could be a special little loveseat. It can be a corner of their playroom. It doesn't have to be the peace table per se. But if you have a designated spot in your home that is the problem solving corner it can be just game changing.

Jen Lumanlan: 20:01

Yeah, thanks for that sort of practical lens on it. And just kind of thinking hearing you talk through those and relating it back to some of the things that Kira was saying, it seems as though that some of this stuff seems as though it's not intuitive, like it's harder. And I can imagine parents thinking, “But I just want it to stop. I just want them to stop.” And what Kira is saying, you know, this is an opportunity, this is an incredible opportunity for us to help our children because, yeah, it's easier to say, “Well, he had it first give it back,” or, “You just stop doing that, I'm going to take it away.” And if we take that approach, then the immediate conflict has stopped right there because the thing is gone. They're not going to fight over that anymore. But it's like the teaching of man to fish: give a man a fish teaching around a fish analogy, that yeah, if we're telling them what to do every single time, then that's our role in that relationship. Our role is always going to be to tell them how to fix their conflicts. And what you're describing is how to teach them to fix their conflicts by themselves.

Daena Thayer: 21:03

Yeah because they don't need you to do that anymore.

Kira Dorrian: 21:05

And I think I mean, I love how you put all that together. Because you know, if you think about the name of our show, it’s Raising Adults, user-focused parenting, we start with the end in mind. And so when you are coming at it from that viewpoint and you're going, okay, I need to think about what am I doing in this moment. What's that going to look like when they're an adult? What does it then make you do? And how do you parent differently when you understand why you're going to sit down and for the 100th time, right? Because that's really hard. I mean, let's be honest, like, I think we can all admit parenting is really intense and really hard. Sometimes you just want to say, “Just give it back.” And you know what, sometimes you will, and that's okay, but if 95% of the time you're taking a deep breath and sitting down at the peace table and teaching them teaching them teaching them, then not only are you setting them up for success with their own relationship, you are going to see them problem solve at school. You're going to see them problem solving work. You're going to see them problem solve with friends. You are going to see that everywhere. And so it becomes so much easier. And we say this all the time: it is not easy to do what's best. But it is so important. We do what's best instead of what feels easiest or most expedient because we want to raise healthy functioning adults who contribute to the world. And we're just not going to do that if we aren't thinking in this long range way.

Daena Thayer: 22:30

Yeah, and we say all the time that the absence of doing something is still doing something. And so, yes, it's exhausting. And yes, it's tiring. But when you think about the dividends that that will pay, it is actually worth it to take that time to do it so that you get those results later. But there's no question that it's challenging and we want to acknowledge that Kira and I are never like, parenting it's a breeze. It's the whole reason that we care about doing it well so that we get to be done. And I think this lends itself to that piece, too, is that when you, instead of just taking over, give back the toy and you shut it down, you may have squashed that for the moment but the children haven't learned any problem solving skills. And when we teach them the problem solving skills, guess what, we actually get to delegate this part faster. And then we're not the one refereeing all the squabbles, right? Because they know how to do it.

Jen Lumanlan: 23:23

Yeah, yeah. And absolutely, just to pick up on the point of you see it come out elsewhere. We were seeing that in school as well, you know, we only have one child, but we do this kind of problem solving approach with her with our own disagreements. You know, we don't see it as well, you need to do it my way because I say so. We see these kinds of things as problems in our relationship. And how can we approach this problem in our relationship? And so yeah, we were hearing from the teachers when she was four that when the other kids in the class have a problem, they come to her to figure out how to solve it. Oh, so yeah, so we see it pop up. And this is going to be a skill that carries them through the rest of their lives in all of their relationships–with their colleagues, with their partners, their significant others if they come into a romantic relationship–able to do this kind of problem solving. Then I mean, they're on so much of a better footing than those of us who didn't learn these kinds of things or waiver children.

Kira Dorrian: 24:22

We sort of have a tool that we apply to a lot of different parts of parenting and it really applies here. And it's Daena's, I want to credit her. Yes we teach it, but it's her amazing philosophy. And it's called ‘I do it, We do it, You do it’ and the ideas that we're handing off but we can't just hand it off. And so we have to lay the foundation. So I'm going to do it just like she said, I'm gonna give you the words. I'm gonna ask the questions when they're small. And then we're going to move into ‘we do it.’ You might see them starting to do some of it and you might still have to do some of it. But the best part is when you go now ‘you do it.’ I handed this off and I have twins. So you know, it was kind of interesting to see here you've got two kids at the same age at the same really developmental stage. This got handed off for me at four years old because they were both four. So you're probably waiting for the littlest to get to four, right? But four years old I remember it saying to them one day, they had a squabble. And I said, “You know, I actually feel like you have all the tools that you need to solve this together. So I'd like you to try, if you still need me, come get me. But I'd like you to try it on your own.” And here's what happens when you do that handoff is you actually empower them to want to fix it because they kind of told you at four, “I can do that. I can totally do that. Thanks, Mom, I'm ready.” You know, and so they’re so much more likely to solve it which then makes them feel next time like they're more capable of solving it. And you get to actually watch those squabbles get less and less. They don't go away. We're humans. We're all gonna have conflict. That's just normal. But what you're going to see and what I’ve seen what I know Daena saw is that those conflicts get resolved faster in a much quieter way. I mean, my kids never scream at each other, ever. A conflict in our house is really like a firm and impassioned sharing of feelings, “Hey, that really made me mad. You hurt my feelings when you did that?” I mean, if that's as bad as we're gonna take that but I really think that's because they just learned from such a young age how to communicate around these things, there isn't a need to scream at each other. It's just not necessary, you know?

Jen Lumanlan: 26:31

Yeah. So since you are all about raising adults, how do you kind of move through this as children get older?

Daena Thayer: 26:39

Yeah, that’s a great question. And I know that we've talked a lot about maybe some things you would employ while they're younger, but then that does start to translate into some different things. And there's this kind of long, slow handoff. And so one of the things that I would say changes around when you're first handing off so in curious case as young as four and then all the way to kind of into those early grade school years as you move to, instead of, you're in the mix with them, we moved to more of a posture of availability. So that is their handling most of the conflict resolution. But it's very clear that if they get stuck or hit a speed bump or if they just really still can't solve it, that you're available to help. And then as they move older your role is really more of like a mentor or a coach. You might be asked occasionally for input on, “You know what, my sister and I are really having this hard time. You know, what are your thoughts? Could we ask you to weigh in? Could you hear from both of us about how we're feeling?” So you might be able to kind of just pour into their lives a little bit with that way, but only on an invitation. Right? So it's very different than I'm just going to be there for sure. And then you can come get me more like, 5,6,7, come get me if there's a problem. This is more than an invitation, “Hey, you know, Mom, we're stuck.” And that's what I've seen kind of more in the teen years is, I mean, because even my teenagers and especially with there's some biological lines and non-biological lines, the communication styles are different. They were in different families of origin for like the first decade of their lives. And so sometimes they do need a little bit of support. And we have to be invited in. We don't get to just butt in. And that's really different. But the other thing I've seen is that this develops that beautiful friendship, too. Because when they've learned how to problem solve with each other and they know they can get to the other side, the conflict isn't this roadblock that you can't get past. It just does something to the bond. That's amazing, too, and I think Kira would agree. I mean, her two are very close. My two are very close. We actually shared a video when we first gave this talk of my daughter surprising my son at school. She came home from college and he didn't know she was coming. And it was after she had just moved away for the first time and basically he pummeled her like he dropped his textbooks and ran. And it's just one of my it's like only an eight second video, but it's like one of my favorite eight seconds because they just– I mean, as soon as you saw her when he came around the corner, he just loves her. And I think this is part of what's so worthwhile for us as parents to do the hard work because you get to watch it slowly change now I'm just available, now I might be invited for input. But along the way, you know what else they're learning is, this is my friend, I can count on this person. They listened to my feelings when we had problems all the way since we were small. And then they're gonna be someone they want to go to, too. We want our kids to want to come to us but I love that my kids also want to go to each other. That’s actually a win for me for sure.

Kira Dorrian: 29:28

And I think too, you know, I think I would assume because I don't have siblings but I see this a lot in conversations I have because our generation was not raised this way I mean, let's be honest, right? We just weren't. People see it as very normal like, oh, that's just normal sibling stuff. And I would just encourage parents to ask themselves, does it have to be? Is it normal because that's the way we were raised? Or is it maybe something that we can shift and change and not lean into throwing that away, like, oh, you know, all siblings scratch each other. I mean, maybe not mine, though my kids don't and I'm not saying my kids are perfect by any means. I'm just saying that I don't think we have to say, oh, that's normal. I think we can challenge that way of thinking and ask what do we want our normal to look like in our family. That's a really important mental shift to make.

Daena Thayer: 30:18

I love that Kira. And it goes to this other saying Kira and I talk about, that is, what we permit we promote. So if we're just allowing the sibling fight because we're like that, that's what happens. We're actually promoting it and in a way encouraging it to continue by our lack of intervention. And again we're not saying you intervene every time. Maybe there's some things that you do need to let go as a parent. I think that's healthy. But the strategic intervention actually sends the message to our kids: I actually think you can rise above. I think you can do better. I think this can look different. And that's what we're telling ourselves to do. It doesn't have to look that way. They don't have to be at each other's throats. Absolutely not. They can be best friends.

Jen Lumanlan: 30:52

Yeah, yeah, I think it’s a really good parallel there to social exclusion in schools as well. And the research is heading in that direction, too. I talked to the researcher on that topic, who's kind of saying, “Well, if you interview pre service teachers, they'll kind of say social exclusion is just part of school. It's just part of being a kid.” And he's kind of saying, “Well, does it have to be, if we could change our attitudes towards it?” And like you said, if we permit it to happen, we're encouraging it. If we can help children to set up different kinds of relationships, this doesn't necessarily have to be a defining feature of school. Yeah, so I love how all this is kind of coming together. The groundwork that we're setting here and our families is what enables these kinds of shifts to happen in other places like school and frankly, this is what gets me excited about this work is like the things that we're doing here and our families are what is going to shift our culture in more inclusive directions in ways that welcome more people into it than has historically been the case. So thank you so much for being out in the world and sharing that work with people. I wonder if you could tell us where to find you online, please.

Daena Thayer: 31:58

Absolutely. So all about us and the parent coaching and online resources, that's all at our website which is FutureFocusedParenting.com. And if people watching this have a question or a topic they'd like to see or a parent coaching question that can email us. It's also info@futurefocusedparenting.com. And then of course, as you mentioned at the top we co-host a podcast called Raising Adults which is all about this intentional, proactive parenting. And that can be found on all major podcast platforms.

Kira Dorrian: 32:29

And we are on social media so people could follow us at Future Focused Parenting,and we do have a freebie for your listeners. So yeah, so just for you guys. So if you go to bit.ly, that's bit.ly/raisingadultspodcast, you will be able to receive, we have a video, which is Three Essential Strategies for Raising Adults. And then we have a very cool principle which is we call it the Calendar of Character Traits. And what it is is actually 12 months where each month we focus on a different character trait that you may want to instill in your child: so integrity, or gratitude, or empathy. And we look at what does it mean? What are activities you can do to instill that character trait? What are some of the books you can be reading with your child? What questions do you need to be asking yourself and communicating with a parenting partner if you have one? It just sort of deep dives into each of these things, one per month so it breaks it down so it's an easy chunks. So if you go to the bit.ly/raisingadultspodcast that will come into your inbox and you'll have it ready to go.

Jen Lumanlan: 33:35

And we will put links to all that good stuff at YourParentingMojo.comfuturefocused.

Jen Lumanlan: 33:42

Thanks for joining us for this episode of Your Parenting Mojo. Don't forget to subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com to receive new episode notifications and the free guide to Seven Parenting Myths That We Can Leave Behind. Join the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group for more respectful research based ideas to help kids thrive and make parenting easier for you. I'll see you next time on Your Parenting Mojo.