205: How patriarchy hurts us…all of us

Hi, I'm Emma, and I'm listening from the UK. We all want our children to lead fulfilled lives. But we're surrounded by conflicting information and clickbait headlines that leave us wondering what to do as parents. The Your Parenting Mojo podcast distills scientific research on parenting and child development into tools parents can actually use every day in their real lives with their real children. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released, and get a free infographic on the 13 Reasons your child isn't listening to you (And what to do about each one), just head on over to YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe. And pretty soon, you're going to get tired of hearing my voice read this intro, so come and record one yourself at YourParentingMojo.com/RecordTheIntro.

Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. And we are here in Vancouver, Iris's house. Thanks so much for having us. You have welcomed us into your home, into your family. And it's really lovely to be here with you. We're here for the Parenting Beyond Power book tour. You were absolutely instrumental in organizing the Culture Talks Event, which was so much fun. And before we came here, you and I were on a coaching call a couple of months ago. And I recounted a story about how my dad and Carys were in the grocery store together. And my I was across the entire produce section from him, and she was I think, three at the time and was kind of kneeling up in the grocery store cart. And he said to her: sit down, and in such a loud tone of voice that I was shocked. And I looked over and you could see that she was really shocked, too. And she just kind of sat. And in that moment, I kind of thought okay, yeah, we're we're not doing that. And so I recounted the story on the call. And you said that you had been thinking about the way that patriarchy shows up in your life as well. And I said: Oh, I've been thinking about recording an episode on that topic. And so, so I think that that conversation sparked something for you. Right? Where does that go for you?

So I, I was like, Oh, yes, because I started thinking about how I do the hat. If Malaya doesn't, like, go to bed, and I would just repeat myself and in a louder voice and a more menacing voice, like, go to bed. And then like, you know, so I started, like, Oh, this is not very comfortable. And and yet, when those instances happen, that's my go to. So yeah. And that just sort of started my reflection of, of what are the things that I do that I wouldn't really want? But then I do it anyway. So..

We have this conversation on the coaching call. And that sort of sparked this train of thought for you. And we decided that there was enough there that you said, let's talk about this when you're in Vancouver. And I said, let's talk about this. So can you start out maybe by just letting us know a little bit about you, who you are in the world where you come from, so that we can kind of be grounded together?

Yeah. Okay. And so when I think of you, there are two things I primarily think of.

Yeah.

One of which is your silliness.

Yes.

I think you may be the silliest person I know.

Oh, that's an honor.

I know. Yeah. We'll take it that way. Yeah, yeah. And the other is your empathy. Can you tell us what that's like for you?

My empathy has. It's a gift. And also, I don't want to think of it as a curse, but I used to think of it as a curse. But I feel deeply about other people. And I have several experiences in my life that I can draw from and connect with other people. And why it's not so much of a gift is because I carry all this emotional burden with me. And I think about oh, what's happened, like, for example, in the membership, especially the Taming Your Triggers, where I go, like, oh, what has happened to this to this mom, and like, you know, and, and I'm just trying to be like, Okay, this is not my burden to carry. And I show compassion. I tried to do what I can, but this person is capable of, you know, navigating her own challenges or something. But it's hard. Like, it's an everyday thing. For me. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. And so. So we're here to talk about patriarchy. And I know that there are ways that this showed up in your family of origin with each of your parents. And obviously, you're an immigrant into Canada. And like, you were telling me and we were chatting beforehand, and you said that you had explained that some of these stories to folks who identify as White who have always lived in this area, and that they saw a lot of commonalities in their lives as well. So can you can you tell us how did this show up for your mom? Maybe first and your dad?

Yeah. So there's this story of I don't really remember this happening, but because my mother has repeated it many, many times, it has become part of my memory. And she said something about like, when I was a toddler, she trained me. So that's the word she trained me to bring my father's slippers, have slippers to the door when he comes home from work. And she was so happy about that. And, and I get it like, you know, you are you are raising a good girl. And so so that was the thing. And then but I I thought of it like oh, okay, oh, I was a good girl. And I was my mother was training me to be this good woman and all those things. But then I realized when Malaya was also a toddler, she wakes up. And then she goes: Oh, mama, let's play, and I would say: Oh, have you said good morning to daddy? And then I so that kept on going, that went on, and I thought, this sounds familiar. Why is this familiar? And and then I realized, Oh, this is my mother, training my child to, to, you know, please the man of the family and to be good. And you know, and because sometimes Malaya wasn't interested in saying good morning to her dad. And, and so I just started to look at my own parenting in that lens, I guess. And, you know, trying to also understand myself like, hey, it's not that I'm bad. It's good that I'm aware of this. And I shouldn't blame myself, but I'm more aware of it. So yeah, that was the kind of like a aha moment for me.

Yeah. And I'm always wondering if your mom missed an opportunity. You could have had slippers in one hand and a martini in the other. Or beer? Yeah. To take it to the next level. Yeah.

Yeah.

Were there other ways that that you saw there showing up for your mom when you were younger?

Yeah. So. So my family so I grew up in the 80s, late 70s 80s in the Philippines. And I think I wouldn't have I think the expectation is that the husband goes, the dad goes out to is the breadwinner, and the moms they saw them and does the house chores. But it was different for my family. It was my mother, who worked as a dressmaker. And my father staying home as the house husband, and doing laundry, washing dishes, cooking, and fetching water. We didn't have indoor plumbing. So we fetch water from the village well, or something.

That sounds like woman's work.

Yes. Yeah. So so my father did the woman's work. My mother did the "man's work" and yet my mother, she wanted the the traditional role. And so she was kind of resentful, like why does she have to be the one working for all of us? And I understand her like when she comes home from work, my father would say, we don't have anything for dinner, and then she goes to the wet market to get fish on credit. We have this paper thing and because my father doesn't want to go out, he's ashamed to, to get things on credit. And so my mother has this expression wherein she says, I'm the one playing the music, and I'm the one dancing. So no, I totally get that. But then also my, my father would do the housework. But then, you know, because it's not the expected, it's not the stereotype, both of them were so unhappy about it, and like, oh, you should do this, and you should do that. And yet, even if my mother was the breadwinner, if there were some decisions that my father did not approve of, he would get mad. So it was, it was confusing for me because I started becoming feeling ashamed of my father, because, you know, all the dads went to work and mine didn't so and just being poor, as well. And so it was confusing. Yeah.

Do you think it really affected your dad's sense of who he was as a person, as a man?

Yes, yeah, yeah, I think of this as my father because he was doing women's work, he was devalued. And he lost his dignity. And that's double whammo, because women's work is not valued. And he's a man doing a woman's work. And so it's even more, like, you know, devalued. And also, he's not unlike my other neighbors, like, we have the macho culture. And they'd be like, drinking in the corner store. And but he doesn't do those things. And so he's so different. He did not belong anywhere. And, and yet, he wasn't as good as the other housewives when it comes to say, laundry. So my mother's relatives would be snickering about our white uniform, because it's not, it's not as white as it should be. Because my father did not bleach it in the sun and all those things. And so, yeah, I just think now and look back, and how my father was just devalued everyday and trying to assert his I don't know his value, but then also, and yet, he's not getting that, he doesn't get the respect from his children. He did not get the respect from his children. Yeah.

I'm also wondering about the emotional climate of your family. Was it okay to express emotions? Were you rewarded or punished for expressing emotions by either of your parents?

Yeah. So emotion is like, you hold it, you hold it, you hold it, or and then it like, it's just erupts like a volcano. And then, and then it says, oh, it's your fault. Like, I was just being patient, and you push me and you push me and now I am, I'm, like, you know, overflowing with this anger. And it's because you did it like you, you know, and we were walking on eggshells, because my father was silly. That's where I got my silliness from, but then he has this moments where he also just erupts and we we didn't know like, what was that?

Which were we gonna get?

Yeah.

Is it the silliness that we can go along with? Or is it the explosion?

The anger? Yeah, yeah.

That's, that's really tough. Yeah, that uncertainty.

Yeah. And I, I noticed that with me too, with Malaya. I like I let her okay, do this. Okay, you can have more additional screen time, additional screen time. And then it's been two hours, give me that. I told you earlier. I give you more than what we agreed on. And now you don't give it to me. Give it to me. So I'm like that Lord of the Rings voice. So yeah, and also understanding my mother in that role, I think I shared with you this story that when she was in her late teens, she worked as a nanny for a widower, took care of his children. And then she got pregnant by her boss, that widower and so she, she got pregnant out of wedlock and her I don't know 17 that the age always changes but late teens, and my uncle, her older brother was so angry, and there was a family meeting and he that my uncle said: Fanny, Rufina (that's my mother), Rufina we should send her away to another island because she she brought shame to our family. And let's consider her dead. Just like a race. Right? And, And so he was adamant that, you know, that did not happen, fortunately. But I don't know if it's the if it's like, irony or poetic justice, I don't know what the word is. But a year after or something, my uncle that uncle who was so mad at,

The same person?

The same the same brother got a woman pregnant out of wedlock. And there was nothing, there was, there was no like, consider him dead. Bring him to another island. No, there was nothing and that double standard, it just makes me angry. And I know that my older brother and that other cousin of mine, they're very close in age. So you know, like, how dare you say this, to my mother was a woman and just raise them. And you did the same thing to another woman? Yeah. So. So my mother's strategy in life has been to, you know, not to rock the boat, keep your head down. Try to be a peacemaker, and appeal to the emotion and, you know, and, and I used to be really mad at her, like, why don't you just do this and do that, and not knowing how hard it was for her that it for her it was survival? Because that same brother sent her to the city for the dressmaking class, which was her livelihood, and then all of us so, you know, it's, it's, it's tricky. Yeah.

And I'm just I mean, that that story, just, it's so heartbreaking. But it's still happening today, right? Women are still policing. Sorry, men are still policing women's bodies today.

Yes.

About, you know, the overturning of Roe v. Wade in the States and, and how it's always the woman's fault. And the pregnancy is the woman's thing to deal with. And I forget the author of the book, there's a book called Ejaculate Responsibly. And it's like, there are often two people involved in this thing. And one of them has no responsibility, and the other one bears all of the responsibility. So this is still happening today.

Yeah.

And so I guess so as we start to, you know, we see you growing up and trying to make sense of all of this. You're becoming a teenager, a young woman and moving to the how old were you when you moved to Canada?

Oh, I was in my early 30s.

Okay, so. So how did how did some of this did you think about this stuff when when you were sort of in those teenage through early adulthood? Middle school years?

Yeah. So in second year, I had my first boyfriend, and he will remain unnamed.

And give a pseudonym, if you.

Yeah. And one of the things that so it was a secret, because you're not supposed to have to get into a relationship in in, in the Philippines, my Filipino culture growing up until you finish school. And that means you're working already, which is, you know, and so, one of the things was that the mother of that young men was, of course, they suspected, but we never said, you know, we never admitted to it. And then so one of the things she said to him was that number one, I was a somatic. So it's kind of a negative, like, why would you get a partner who's simply perfect? Yeah. Another that I'm not good in housework.

Okay, I'm, I'm looking around at your place. The first thing I thought when I walked in here was it is so clean in here. It's not the tidiest, I'll give you that. Yeah, but it is clean in here. Yeah.

But, um, well, I have to think somebody who helps us clean but we do our best but, but that's the thing. And I was very sassy. And I would be, I would be not, not I wouldn't say this in front of my boyfriend's mother. But I would say, Oh, you need somebody to cook and for your son. Why don't you get a housekeeper? You don't need a way for that. And of course, I didn't say I was just like, I was just saying this to my boyfriend. And you know, because...

Why didn't you say it to his mom?

Because it will be disrespectful.

Yes.

Because she's the elder. Yes. So in front of her, I was like, oh, hello like that, you know, so And so. It was around this time that the relationship got wonky. Understandably, I told myself, I will not marry a Filipino. And but I also have to admit I'm not very popular with Filipinos, because I speak my mind. And like, again, I'm not good in housework. The in-laws will say like, No, this is not a good choice. And, but somehow I had this idea that if I marry a non-Filipino, or somebody who did not grow up in the Philippines, that they will be someone who will share in the housework. And men's Oh, like maybe in the, in the abroad, so abroad, like US, Canada, Scandinavia, and so So of course, I was so naive to be thinking this, and also there was this one experience, which really was kind of a, it was very significant to me, our house was kind of a hub for people from other provinces or from the countryside. And there was one time that there was a woman who came in a casino because I don't remember anymore. And she arrived at their house, she had her hair bald, like, like crooked or something very short. And that is very uncommon in the Philippines. And so I asked her, and, and she said, she had typhoid fever, And her hair fell out. But my other cousin said that her husband cut her hair, because he saw her talking to another man. And I was just, and of course, I have neighbors who, you know, there's domestic violence, but that woman the, the act of somebody else, like a man cutting a woman's hair, I, I did not have word for patriarchy, or domestic violence, but I just felt like something is wrong there. Like, like, like, I was just like, something is very wrong. And now she and at that time, she was at our place. She was trying to, like, you know, cool down everything until her husband comes down or forgives her or whatever, like, but I cannot forget her hair.

Yeah. And actually, that's reminding me of when you cut your hair. Yes. Yeah. Why did you cut your hair? You told me at the time, and I'm not remembering right now.

Yeah, it was partly that experience. It was me saying, I'm cutting my own hair short. Even if it's not expected, no one will cut my hair. Well, of course, there was a hairstylist who did a hair cut there. But for me, it's taking back that act of like, first of all, like beauty. Yeah. What is beauty? What is waman? Like, what is feminine beauty? It's not always long hair. And that experience, Oh, just just a little bit of context with cutting hair. Fathers also threaten their teenage daughters, that if they still go on with their secret boyfriends or whatever, that their hair will be cut short.

Yeah, like a visible shaming, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And so to me, that was just like, No, you know what? No, I'm doing it. No one hopes. So so it was it was just me. I did not do anything like performance art or anything.

From what I remember, your daughter thought it was performance art, didn't she? Yes. She had a pretty strong reaction to it, didn't she?

Yes. Because her concept of feminine beauty is long hair. And she was just like, are you still the same mother that I have? And you know, it's still me. And until now she's saying like, don't don't do that again. And maybe I'll still do it. Now I need permission from my own doctor. Oh, my.

Things are changing.

What's happening?

Okay, so so we skipped ahead a little bit. Right. So you were you you had this boyfriend that didn't work out ultimately. You got married in your 30s?

Yeah.

Which is relatively late.

Yes. Yes. Because I was in my mid 20s. I was called an old maid in our village. Yeah,

Yeah. And so then you came to Canada? Yes. And you met your husband. Line dancing. I found out last time yeah here. And so you got married. And so were there kind of inklings of anything percolating in your mind before you have my because for me, I didn't notice any of this stuff until after Carys was born. Right. We seemed like equals until that point. So I'm wondering, did you see anything before that point or was it only after Malaya was born that you start to notice these things?

What I noticed was myself asking Richard, what would you like for dinner and even if I want something else, then I would like, sort of adjust and even the bedtime, like, I'm more of a morning, a day person, and he's more like, an I adjust myself for for so that we will be in rhythm unless, otherwise we will be like passing chips. Right. But I think it was really when Malaya was born that things just like was clear.

Okay, oh, what was clear?

Well, also to mention that Richard is retired, so he has this, you know, he stays home. But there is more pressure on me from myself, like, I perceive, Richard, that he expects me to still do a lot of the housework. And he does it, but it's not in the time timeline that I'm thinking so. So I'll do it. And one other thing is, I'm not bringing in income, like money. And I feel like, oh, I have to do this. Because I, I will make myself worthy of being here, of existing. And my contribution is doing all this things in the house, and with the children, with children with Malaya.

So so how does that show up in terms of how you expect your husband to do things? Like, what what what's there?

So, so for me, being a man, I have this expectation that you know, you are, even if there's a storm around you, you stay grounded, and you are very, like, Okay, let's do this, let's do that. But in our relationship, it's, it's me it was like that, because I love logistics and planning and like, yeah,

You excel in logistics and planning, I have to say,

And I just love it. And Richard just prefers to be like, doing his own thing, and not to be directed and all those things and, and he gets overwhelmed. Of course, also being neurodivergent person he gets overwhelmed with when there are so many things going on. And, and to me, I'm just like, why can't you just, you know, why can't you do this? And why can't you understand this? And then there was a time when I went all like, Comic Cons, or, you know, I was nagging him like, you should have done this, you should have done that. And then we went to bed, I thought there was nothing because he did not reply to me. But in the middle of the night, he woke up and I came back from the washroom and he just said: Next time, next time Iris you marry a neurotypical. And I just saw, I just felt the hurt of me, like, expecting him to be somebody else. That that, you know, he's he's not what I expect. A man man, a man man, a manly man, you should be. And yeah, and how he is hurt by, you know, not just being neurodivergent, but, you know, the class thing and how he feels he does not belong. And because he's not. He's white, but he's not the typical White person with loud voice and like a lawyer tall, like, you know, and and some of his siblings are and just just like being different, that you don't you don't tick the box of masculine men, right? And so like, if you're not a masculine man, but you're a man. So, you know. And I feel that I and I've felt the anger in him, especially in the beginning of our relationship, like, you know, being ostracized, ostracized, being left out, not belonging, like he feels like he does not belong. And this is this country. Well, this is my country now. But he was raised and he was born and he was raised here and just not feeling you belong. It's in the place where you grew up. Just you know.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think a lot of that comes from we have such a narrow idea of what you have to do, right to be a man of how you can look how you can present yourself how you can sound. And that if you don't fit with that, then I mean, if you identify as a man, then you're kind of becoming more womanly. If you, you're not big enough and tall enough and loud enough and then and of course, in a patriarchal culture, there's nothing worse really than being a woman. Yes. So it's sort of looked down on right. And of course, the same goes for women and the policing of women's bodies. If you look a certain way, then you are a womanly, and if you don't look that way, you're not a woman, you do the housework. And yeah, don't rock the boat.

Yeah, what kind of woman are you, you don't know how to do this, or you don't know how to do that. And I remember my parents telling me growing up that if I don't learn this work, or if I'm if I don't shut my mouth, if I'm very lousy, that my husband will return me as like, Oh, if you don't behave in a certain way. We, I think your husband will return you to us like you turn to the fact like back to sender.

You know, you're not the first person I've heard from actually, yeah, I was doing a workshop in Colorado And

Not Filipino?

No, no, no. Mexican American immigrant. Said the same threats were made in their family. And so yeah, it seems like if you fit within this role, and you do these things, or you'll get sent back again, right, with this code of the ultimate you don't belong. Yeah. Yeah. Is and we're gonna send you back.

Yeah. And, And just remembering to when Richard said to my mother, that we wanted to get married. My mother was so relieved. She was like, Oh, like that. And it's like, at last, my daughter is sold, like, you know, it's like, she got on the train. She's not left by the train. And like, all those things, and like, like, what is like women should have a man or should have good, married? And then after that, why don't you have children? And so all these expectations?

Yeah ,I definitely felt that as well. And it's, it's almost like it's expected. Yeah. And it's, it's so expected. It's like, there's no other choice. Yeah. It's not the nobody told you there's no choice. It's just that what else is there? Yeah. There's the shame and humiliation of being a single woman...

Yeah.

In your 30s 40s 50s an old maid. Or you can bypass that shame and marry somebody.

Yeah. And then you should have children. Yes. Is like because that's next.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I think about I'm not sure if I'm saying her name correctly, Zong Villines is I think, how it's spelled. And she writes a lot on Facebook and has written about how about that exact thing. And the what if we were to tell our girls now and even even our boys, that there are other choices that that you don't have to assume, right? Because this is this is socialized into our kids, all the skipping games, they play in school, all the teasing of each other of who fancies who all setting us up for this is what's next, get ready for it? And what if we talked with our kids now about you there? You can, there could be another option, you don't have to do this, this is one of a number of options.

Yeah. And that option thing that you don't have to choose right away, you can just like, that's dry, or like, you know, tested. And Malaya has told me that she wants to be a an artist and a model and the, you know, like musician with a performer and she was so at one point, she was like, oh, what should I be mama? And I said, Well, you don't have to decide now you can just test it. And you can be all those things. It's fine. Like, you know, and it's the same with having a boyfriend. I always, some will, will ask Oh, so do you ever just teasing her? And then and I will say or girlfriend?

Or transgender friends?

Yeah.

Non binary.

Non binary friend. Yeah.

And why are we teasing eight year olds about having a boyfriend or a girlfriend? Right. That's just part of that socialization? Yeah. So So I'm curious about how this shows up in your parenting. Now, when you're interacting with Malaya, when when obviously you're trying to interrupt that narrative a little bit that that she's getting from other people about the sort of sis-heteronormative path or their, what other ways do you see patriarchy showing up sort of as a force to be reckoned with and that you're working to dismantle it?

I think will not I think I know that working on my problems solving skills is part of me teaching Malaya that, like, you know, you have a voice that it's not just me who's older than you who who is your parent who knows about, like, you know, mother is mother knows best that's like, you know, the person knows best what they are experts have our own selves and creating that space for her to say, this is not working for me. What can we do and, and she comes up with really great ideas. And for me to accept it, and for me to be not thinking like, Oh, my, when I was a child, I would never, I would have been slapped for saying that or for doing that. And, you know, this is different, this is a different way of parenting. And yet, I also recognize that I have a lot of hurt from the past. And sometimes I feel like, it's so unfair, you know, before I was not allowed to do this. And now she's allowed, I let her do that. And she's not grateful, or she's not, you know, all those things, and all those baggage that I carry with me. So I'm, I'm learning to just sit down, to sit down this heavy baggage, emotional baggage and just see Malaya for, for who she is and for who she wants to be, rather than me trying to define her or, you know, telling her this is what you should do, or that's what you should do.

Yeah, I mean, to me, that's, that's what this work is all about. Right? Because what you wanted, what I wanted, when we were little was to be seen as who we really were. And instead of that we got, you know, put the parts of ourselves that are too big, put them in a box, ignore them pretend they're not there anymore, and only present to the world, this sanitized version of ourselves, the version that's clean, and doesn't talk back and doesn't have ideas. Yeah. And so what you're doing is you're saying 'yes,' I would have been punished for speaking in that way. But that doesn't make it inherently bad.

Yes.

And I can learn to heal myself so that I can hear that from her and hear: mama, this is not working for me. And work to find a way that actually works for both of you. I mean, to me that that heading in that direction is patriarchy, dismantling patriarchy, healing work.

And just Yeah, that's really true. And also accepting her observation, because sometimes she can be so spot on it curves, in what way? I may have shared this in the group. One time I was answering emails or something, and she was on her iPad, and she said, Mama, I'm hungry. Is that okay? Let me finish just one more paragraph. And of course, the paragraph was very long. And like, Mama, I'm hungry, and that she must have said several times. And then Richard comes here to the kitchen door and said, Oh, it's dinnertime. And I stood up right away. And they're like, oh, okay, okay, you know, not finishing the paragraph and enough. And then later on. Just a few minutes after she she was still in her iPad. And she said: Mama, why is it that if I ask for food, you you will let me wait. But if it's Daddy you, you give him food right away, or you, you know, get going and I was like, spot on?

Yeah, and the things that they observe because they don't have all the decades of cultural conditioning that we have they see it for how it really is. And we can learn from that. I think there's so much we can learn from this, that instead of us thinking that our role is we have to teach children to be in a certain way that we can learn from them, how we're showing up, whether that's aligned with our values, right? Because that's kind of not aligned with your values.

No. And so I've made the conscious decision that I won't be a lawyer for both Richard and Malaya. Because I'm, I'm like the negotiator like, Malaya will tell me: Oh, when Daddy tells when Daddy tells me this thing, so for example, she hurts her finger. And then Richard would say like, Oh, when I was a boy Malaya I had this injury and I did not cry and all these things and she was telling me that she did not feel it was helpful and you know, and so I asked her what do you think would be helpful and Oh that is to just say, Okay, let's get the band aid and things like that. Richard does that but he is we know and like, you know, compares himself to to him and the same way Richard Richard would complain to me like how, how hard how difficult Malaya was. And I'm kind of like, the between and and I will say to Malaya before I would be like, oh, you should understand that he because his this is that it is experience. But now I've just like, ask her what would be helpful to you? And not to sort of rationalize why her dad did that or said that. And the same with Richard, I will explain that. You know, Malaya has a need that she wants she wants to be heard, that she needed, like connection, for example, or something and, and she was acting that way. And sometimes when the three of us are here, they talk to me and like, oh, but that, isn't it? Oh, well, mine said I would say in my Filipino accent. Oh, yeah. The two of you you talk to each other? I'm not a lawyer, you're not paying me. You talk to each other. And then they would go silent.

Well, I think that's a really important point. Because I think that women often think well, patriarchy is a man's thing. Right? Patriarchy is about men being in charge. Yeah. And I pointed I often make in workshops is that we are not neutral parties in this. We can be conduits of patriarchy. And I'm thinking about an example that we talked about before, right before we started recording where I was just a few days ago in a parking lot. And Carys and I were sitting in the car outside waiting for my husband to be in a store and in the car next to us, there's a family getting in, and I hear the mother say to the toddler, you better get in that car seat, or Daddy's gonna get really angry. And so we're not neutral parties in this. We are conduits for it, right? We we the power flows down through us. And I do work with some parents who say that my mom was the one that was in charge. And so, you know, how does that fit within a patriarchal culture? And I guess my response to that, is that, you know, any culture where there is this power dynamic, this power over is an it sort of inherently patriarchal culture. And even if that power is flowing down primarily through the woman, right, and because if it was a feminist culture, it would be a shared dynamic, which is what we're working towards. So, so I guess, you know, a lot of people listening to this are going to be female identifying and are going to be thinking, Well, yeah, patriarchy sucks. And it's all about the man's role, and the man's got to change what he does. But I really see that what we do is important to.

Yeah.

And that we need to recognize our role in perpetuating this and right and in propping up the system in protecting the man at the top of the family from any sort of emotional discomfort, pain. And, and sort of using our power over our children, which itself is also a patriarchal.

Yes, yeah. And I do that to like, like that woman, like, oh, what's when once I do that, like, oh, it especially if I don't want to deal with a thing. It's like, oh, you wait for that. He will say what, like, you know, and, and, but then I also feel like, that's not a good example, for my daughter. Like, why do you always have to wait for this man to say something like, you know, and I don't want her to be that, that just waiting for the boss or waiting for this to to give the stamp of approval. So and so what I often would suggest is like, okay, let's talk. Every time I say we will have a family meeting Malaya gets like, oh, because she's afraid or what would the consequence is on her, but I just want everybody to be heard. And not just this. The power is just in this one person is like a White male, or even if he was White or something, but, ya know, yeah. Yeah.

So where are you now? Right? Where are you with it? What's your leading edge of practice? Is it in caring for yourself? Is it in your relationship with Richard? Is it your relationship with Malaya? What's really present and alive for you at the moment?

Yeah, it's really resting. When I feel I need a rest, And that I'm worthy of rest, and that I don't have to do all the dishes and to do all the housework that...

You're doing so well. I see dishes on the counter.

I had to work hard that I'm worthy of resting. And one interesting thing is that Richard told me just a few months ago that he thinks that it's easy for me to rest. Because I just say, Okay, I'll take a nap. I usually say, I listen to a meditation, which then segue to napping, because it makes me feel relaxed. And he said to me that, oh, you find it so easy to rest? And I said, oh, excuse me, no, I have to really like, I, like self-talk myself into it. And, and I realized that he has this pressure to like, have, oh, I have to do this, to fix that, to fix this. And my list is really long. And you know, like he himself, he has the pressure of achieving being productive, and all those things. And I just laugh because like, he thinks I'm good in wrestling. And I think he's good in resting and like, let's just chill.

Yeah, for capitalism, right? You're you have value if you're producing.

Yeah, And you are like, nothing if you haven't achieved something for the day. So you know, yeah.

So rest, rest is the core for you and noticing where this shows up with Malaya.

Is there anything else you'd like to share?

Yes. And that dynamics dynamic of like, okay, let's ask your dad, and waiting, like the world stops, because we will wait for dad to say his opinion, so, or his give his approval? So, yeah.

I have this whole vision that our children, our daughters will be comfortable in speaking up and being understanding, and also like, asserting, like, hey, I need this, I need to rest or whatever, like, I need to do this, I want to do this. And I will adjust but you won't. You men or let their partners will not be the in an altar or something. So that's my hope. And I guess my that's my hope. And also, there's a lot of work for me to do for that to happen.

Yeah, yes. Because she's not going to get to 18 and suddenly realize that, so she's either going to practice that with you, or she's going to learn the same things that we learned.

Yeah. Yeah.

Where, where? Yeah, where the man is, is sort of at the top of the food chain. And, you know, I want to be clear that the patriarchy hurts men, too. Yes. It's not sort of a male bashing thing. It hurts men differently, I think, and maybe not to the same extent. But it hurts, it hurts men as well. So. So I think that that ideally, what we are moving towards is allowing all of us, you and me and our children, to be able to live our whole expression, and that we both happen to be raising children who identify as girls right now. And, and so the idea of knowing yourself and being able to have your own ideas as forefront, but also, you know, if we were parents of boys, then then allowing them the ability to fully express their feelings, and be in deep relationships with somebody else. Wouldn't be something that I would be definitely very focused on.

Yeah.

It's, it's really profound work. Really is. Yeah. Thanks for being willing to go on camera and share the depths of your marriage and your parenting with us. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. At the back of my mind, I'm just thinking, Oh, my relatives will see this. Anyway. I think my gift to the world is my story. So I'm letting it go. And look you know, whatever comment they will have, they will just have to say it to me, and I will respond.

And they're too far away to shave your head by and large.

Yes, I will shave my head first, before they do it.

Thank you so much.

Thanks. So thanks to you Jen. Yeah.

I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I enjoyed being with Iris. Between the time when we recorded that chat and today I developed the idea of offering three things that you can try if you want to put the ideas from the episode into practice. I started out calling them mild, medium and spicy. And when I was in touch with Kerry Cavers, for the Moms Against Racism episode, she kind of called me in on that naming. And she said it wasn't sitting well with her. She said that foods that are spicy come from racialized cultures. And because Whiteness is centered, these dishes are often referred to in an othering way or disgust with language that implies they're abnormal. And she went on to say that she wasn't sure about associating spiciness with the hardest or the most challenging or uncomfortable actions to take. Of course, my intent was not to harm with this labeling, but my White privilege means I'd never had to consider that until now. And I kind of assume if you've made it this far into the episode, you've heard us say the word patriarchy this often, you're probably also going to be okay with hearing about White privilege. So I really appreciate it that calling in from Kerry. I took her point, I'm in the process of changing the naming to the curious learning and growth stages. You'll still hear it referred to as mild to medium and spicy in old episodes, and even in some new episodes that are conversations that were recorded before she and I had that chat. And it shows up in some workshops too which we have to approach very systematically to make sure that we catch all of the mentions, and we don't confuse people. But just know that that change is coming.

So to go on to our curious practice for this episode, I would suggest the first thing to start doing is noticing patriarchal ideas when they show up in the media that we're consuming with our children. So I actually have an example right here, which you'll be able to see if you're watching this on YouTube. It's a book that Carys and I reread recently we haven't looked at in quite a while called "Yesterday, I had the blues," and it links colors with feelings and the main characters experiences in his family, although the boy himself isn't named. And I bought this book because it's important to us that we read books featuring racially diverse characters. And I particularly appreciated this one because it shows a Black family just living their lives and not explicitly dealing with or trying to teach White readers about racism. But when we reread it, I noticed quite a lot of things that I hadn't seen before. The main character's dad has got the Grays because he got a parking ticket, and the boy knows he'd better not ask for a new skateboard today. Dad is in the role of being a provider, and the family money manager. Mom is barely mentioned, except to say that she got the reds, which now I realize kind of plays into the angry Black woman stereotype. And the kids run away from her when it happens. The boy's sister Sasha kind of predictably, likes dancing, because Sasha got the Pink's. She likes butterfly hair clips, and things that make the boy want to hop on the next bus. So this is very clearly communicating that pink is a girl's color. And boys should distance themselves from anything associated with femininity, as far and as fast as possible. This is how these kinds of ideas are transmitted to our children. And I don't want to pick on this book, because I don't think it's necessarily worse than any other book is just one that I happen to have reread recently that I thought would make an example to share.

So the curious step is just to start noticing some of these things. And then the learning step is to start having a conversation about them with our children. And you're actually doubly lucky on that one, because I have an example to share with you. So parents in the Parenting Membership have been asking me for a module on how to talk with children about big topics like White supremacy, and patriarchy and capitalism. So I've been recording bits of conversations that I have with Carys on these topics. And as luck would have it, I recorded my conversation with her about this book. She did give me permission for me to record it and to share it, although she does tend to feel a bit embarrassed when I'm recording. So she doesn't say as much as she would if we were just chatting between the two of us. She also speaks in her silly voice. So you hear me translate what she says several times. What you're about to hear is not very different from what I just explained to you. But many parents tell me they don't know how to have these conversations with their children. So I'm hoping that this recording will help you a little bit with that.

Okay, so we just read one. Yesterday, I had the blues, right? And you notice the paints immediately. Yeah. Did you notice anything else about what the book was talking about?

The first thing that the boy had was a Blue. Blue.

Okay, And who is Blue? What color is blue associated with? Boys? Yeah. Okay. And what's what's the mom's role in the family?

To do what with the children? Take care of the children? Yeah, get them to do what they're told. Right? And how did you do that?

No.

By getting egg, yeah. And daddy's role is what? Driving around paying for things, right? That is the red line. That is you want to make some money.

So this book, I appreciate this book, because there are Black characters in it who are not talking about race, right? They're not educating us about race. They aren't coping with racism. They're just living their lives, which I think is really cool.

And then at the same time, They're also reinforcing gender norms. Right there. Remember the what happened to the boy when he wanted when he saw the pinks when he saw his sister doing the pinks?

Oh, right.

Right, want to catch the next bus. So. So it's saying that that anything to do with girls and femininity and pinkness is bad, And boys should get away from that as fast as they can. So it's really hard to find books that fully reflect our values, right? Because even when we want to read books by bBack authors, talking about, like people just enjoying their lives and having fun, and then we come up with other ideas that maybe don't fit with our values.

Nobody got the marbles.

No, they didn't. There anything else you wanted to?

Or the oranges?

No. I mean, yes. Grandma had the yellows, didn't she?

But not the own?

Yeah, yeah, those were similar story.

I don't censor the books that Carys reads. And I don't plan to start now. But we will definitely keep talking about these ideas as they come up. There are obviously a lot more than three steps that you can take on this topic. But the one growth idea I'll leave you with for now, is to start noticing the ways that patriarchy shows up in your relationship with your child, and maybe even with your spouse. If you're a woman in a relationship with a man do you try to get your children to squash their big feelings so as not to inconvenience your partner? Do you use daddy's power and authority to gain their compliance by telling them they don't want to see how angry he will be when he finds out what they've done? Do you make yourself smaller and minimize your needs and take up less space in the relationship with your children and your partner so as not to inconvenience anyone but perhaps particularly your partner. You could start by noticing these things. And maybe a future growth step could be to deliberately start practices that heal whatever you're seeing show up.

If you're not a woman in a relationship with a man, then what you notice and your practices will most likely be different. But patriarchy kind of has a habit of showing up in a lot of places. So I would be surprised if it wasn't in your relationship with your partner, especially in your relationship with your children, because it's a system of domination that you most likely learned from your own parents. If you're a dad listening to this, who has a female partner, then start by looking out for times when your partner hushes the children when you're around. Look for times when you use a loud voice or threats to get them to do what you want them to do. Look for your partner not expressing a preference for what she wants to do, or deferring to your preference. These will all be signs, some of the vast majority men, many, many, many more signs that patriarchal power is here in your relationship. And a really big part of healing from that is making sure that everyone in the family has a chance to be heard. So I hope that gives you just a few ideas to get you started in your own practice, or to build on your existing ideas as we all work to heal for all of our benefit.

Hi, I'm Emma, and I'm listening from the UK. We know you have a lot of choices about where you get information about parenting, and we're honored that you've chosen us as we move toward a world in which everyone's lives and contributions are valued. If you'd like to help keep the show ad free, please do consider making a donation on the episode page that Jen just mentioned. Thanks again for listening to this episode of the Your Parenting Mojo podcast.