190: How to use the tools in Parenting Beyond Power

Hi, I'm Adrienne in suburban Chicagoland and you're listening to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast with Jen Lumanlan. Did you know that Jen's book will be published in August 2023? It's about making parenting easier, and helping us to address some pretty big social challenges at the same time. If you'd like to be notified when Jen comes to a town near you for a book, reading, and maybe even bring her to your town for a workshop about the tools in the book, you can do that by visiting YourParentingMojo.com/book. I'm looking forward to seeing her when she comes to Chicago.

Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. I am here today with three very special listeners who have all read Parenting Beyond Power. The book is going to be out in a very short space of time, I think about a week after this episode is released. And we are going to talk about it, and what we learned from it, and how it is resonating in our lives. And I'm so grateful that these three listeners are here with us today. So we're gonna go around and introduce ourselves. And I'm just gonna go first for those of you who are new here to my work and my name is Jen. I'm a White cisgender heterosexual woman. I'm married and that partnership give me some privilege in parenting because I get to take breaks. And I'm able bodied, and I am autistic as well (recently discovered). I do have education. And I also have a platform to share ideas here on the podcast, and some economic privilege as well. And I've known about racism and structural racism for quite a while I would say well over a decade, but I didn't know that I had white privilege as a parent until 2018. I actually looked back through my emails and found the email where I discovered that for the first time. And I've been listening to the podcast (well, I rarely listened), but let's say I've been around the podcast since it was born a while ago. So at least did you want to go next and introduce yourself?

Hi, I'm Elisa. I'm a brown sis Latina woman. I'm married, partnered and neurodivergent. I do have a variety of privileges. I have some economic privilege, privilege ,and educational privilege and relatively light-skinned and white passing in certain contexts. I've been listening to Jen's podcast and have been lucky to be a part of some memberships over the years and have learned a lot. And in terms of White supremacy and patriarchy and a bunch of different things that the podcast talks about, I've been kind of thinking about it, grappling with it in various ways and the forms that directly and indirectly affects my life and my kid's life for a long time. I don't have an email yeah.

I'm Elizabeth Mac. I live in a rural corner of Northwest Ohio named Ottawa with my partner and two kids who are six and four. I'm able-bodied sis woman, White woman. I have suspected underdiagnosed neurodivergence. I've some economic privilege that allows me to stay at home and to homeschool my kids. I've been listening to podcasts since pretty much though beginning I don't know how I got on the podcast, but pretty much since beginning. And I am in the Parenting Membership and just starting my second year. And just recently it's been that I've been working on recognizing my privilege and how the patriarchy and capitalism and White supremacy are affecting my life and the lives of those around us.

Hi, I am Kat. I am a single mother of two young kids, almost six and almost four. I live just outside Houston in Texas. And I am a cisgender, hetero-passing female, White female. And I do have a course White privilege, economic privilege. I do also have an unusual one that I consider family tie privileges because of the fact that I have co-parents within my parents that help with my children. And I know not a lot of single mothers have that. I am able-bodied college-educated. I've been listening to the podcast inconsistently for about two years, but I definitely come back to it when whenever I'm feeling stuck. It's my favorite place to come for information. And I just recently started getting involved in memberships this year, including a Parenting Membership. I have been aware of social justice issues regarding White supremacy, capitalism and privilege for several years now but didn't really start hitting me about how it's affecting my parenting on a regular basis until probably this year.

Awesome, thank you. And alright, so I want to kind of dive into the deep end here, because I think this is probably on people's minds if they have heard about the book by now. Maybe they're even in the membership, they've been listening to the podcast for a long time and so you all have been around the podcast for a while, at least at least a couple of years, if not much longer than that. And so what I'm super curious about is how is this different? How is this different from just listening to the podcast, or even listening to the podcast, and maybe having gone through Taming Your Triggers, being in the Parenting Membership? Who would like to start with that?

Yeah, I mean, I can jump in as I think, as I said, I've been thinking about, like, all these different topics that you touch on in the book profile. And what I loved about it is that it really kind of brought it all together. Because it's so even in a podcast episode might be like a deep dive into one thing, I might pick up a book and you know, focus my energy there. And yes, there are kind of patterns and things that I kind of vaguely know about, but you really kind of draw the line between them. The way you talk about how all of these things--White supremacy, patriarchy and conventional parenting--it's all about separation, right? That was just became like, so clear to me. So what I loved about it is that all these different aspects that are so important that, at least in my life, have spent time to think about it's like, all in one book. I can see the threads so clearly, and then pull out the pieces that okay, yes, I feel, you know, want to work on this. I want to think more about that. And it just, yeah, it was a really nice, cohesive, interesting piece that I think I find really valuable.

Yeah, I would say I agree with that. I think for me, what I enjoy most is that I do have some basic knowledge in all these different areas about how it's affecting, tightening the mass population. And I've kind of addressed it on like an individual within myself level, as best I can. And I'm still constantly working on it. But I think what I love about this is that it is a really good place for a parent who has all these different things that they want to be working on within themselves, and how they want to instill that in their children. And kind of having a central place where all that can kind of be brought together and tools talked about how to better address that with not only ourselves, but our children And how that branches out to the community and the world at large. I think it's very powerful and very helpful for kind of like that central hub of like, okay, I know all of this. But now what do I do with it? And how do they connect pieces?

Yeah, it's just really nice to see that all together, come together. So I agree. The examples are really helpful. I found that really good to connect to as well. So just, I can't wait till I have the physical book in my hand, because we didn't get copies to like be able to like go through and like scribble notes in the margins, I'm one of those. Thank you.

Yeah, awesome. Okay. So then I'm curious about because the premise of the book is that these social forces (White supremacy, patriarchy, capitalism) have really impacted our relationships with our parents and caregivers, and will continue to impact our relationships with our children, unless we make a decision to do something differently. And so that's sort of the setup of it. And then the whole rest of the book is okay, if we're on the same page about that, what do we actually do differently? So I'm curious, are there practices that you are already using that are helping? And how has this sort of helped you to focus on things that are working for you? Has it helped you to change direction? Where are you with the tools that are in the book?

I would say for us, we're definitely using the tools I have in In my family (I can't speak for my husband, but I am). And having more of the problem solving conversations and trying to figure out what everyone's need is and like, asking a six year old what their need is like they kind of know but they don't really know. But the needs cupcake we have it printed out. It's on the fridge like so I definitely printed things out. Because like the needs, they need to be somewhere so you can go like go over to if we need to reference them. And so we're getting there. They're kind of like, what is the thing Mom's doing? But we're getting there.

Nice. And I think that you actually had some questions about that, Elizabeth, right? Maybe you since we're kind of heading in that direction, I know that you've been trying problem solving conversations for a bit. And you mentioned it's been kind of difficult. Maybe we can dig into that and then come back to some of the tools that other folks are using. Do you want to talk a little bit about how it's been difficult to have problem solving conversations?

Just some of the ideas that I come up with? They're not meeting her needs or she doesn't see them as meeting her needs. And so I don't know if we're getting to the root need. But having so

Yeah, what's an example of where that's happened?

Probably around bedtime. So we're trying but kind of like no set bedtime thing where, like eight o'clock, we get them ready for bed. They have to be in their rooms. And then at night by nine o'clock, if they haven't come and got us to say our bedtime, then they might, you know, get a, I don't even know if they get a good night or anything for us. It just they have to get us by nine o'clock. And so my daughter doesn't really like that. She's kind of on board with that. She stays up at her room pretty late with her Yoto. And because she's, we don't have anything to do in the summer, it's fine. So but we still do get her up if she has somewhere to go or be like to get a doctor's appointment. But she's not really happy with the hourish getting ready and going to bed routine, because I mean, we have to brush her teeth and get ready to bed at sometime, you know? So previously, we're just staying up till nine. And that was like, then we were like, we're not sitting down. I'm not sitting down till lovin and I'm like,

Yeah, that's not working. Okay, so what is it that she's not having? Like, she does it but it's not working for her. Am I quite clear?

She doesn't want to get ready for bed at like eight. And then spend the hour in her room like, alone.

Got it.

I don't know that she wants the one-on-one time. She just wants to stay up out in the general area later. I think the she wants the you know, community here. Sense of community. Yeah.

What was happening before you started this? So she was getting before? What was she doing? She was getting ready for bed at 9, 11.

Right? Like, well, when we previously like, we were getting ready for bed at 8:45 and then they could be in the room as late as they wanted. But even before that, they would get ready to for about like 7:30 and be in bed at eight. And like we're expected to go to sleep by like, yeah, you're like, yeah.

And for you, like, do you? When do you need to get to get closer to bed or calm or

We got about like we are by my husband And our family goes to bed at night to sleep at like 11 from like, I don't know, in your field, but like 8 to 11 when they were in bed was like my golden three hours to do everything that I couldn't get done during the day. So like keeping those precious hours. And I was like, Okay, maybe we'll try to do self-care during the day, which has been going okay, and I feel like more calm and grounded. And, you know, so bedtime is not as much as a struggle. But she's like, we're still trying to find that happy medium, or like everyone's needs are met. And I still have time for myself at the end of the night. Because I still need at least a little bit of time.

It sounds like you're already trying to meet some of those needs earlier. Is some of that evening, is it mostly like, where you meet your need for like downtime, relaxing connection? Is it also like task time?

It's both with me, like we watch TV. So we usually watch an hour TV together before we go to bed. So like by 10 o'clock, they have to really be in their rooms, because they're not really kid appropriate show. So that's one reason that 9 is like being in your room time because it's from 9 to 10. She comes out a couple times and gets water because she doesn't want to keep in her room because she wants to see what's going on. So,

Yeah, I mean, I don't have any particular suggestion. I'm just trying to kind of tease out kind of what the needs are or what the tasks are, or kind of as Jen shows. And some of the examples in the book are just I mean, where I mean, it's kind of one thing to say needs, okay, yes. But like really? Okay, what is the core need? And once it's the need, right, how to be creative about fixing it, right? Or not fixing it, but finding a way to meet it. So like, if it's tasks, are you okay with her kind of being around while you're doing tasks, as long as she knows, okay, this is your task time, because maybe that would meet her need of like, being around people. And still you need to do stuff or maybe some of that stuff can be done earlier and she can go to bed later, right? I mean, I don't know. Like how do you see any ways that some things can be shifted or? Yeah, I guess maybe just reflected it sounds like you need to one get things done; two have some time or you know, you're like,

Yeah, I think that's that yeah, those two hours where like, if she's in bed by 9 or like in her room consistently right, and that she just doesn't seem. I think she would stay up until us with us until 11 and if she could. And it's like then we don't have any like four of them together. So that's definitely not going to work. And she doesn't really respect the boundary of you can be out here, but Mommy's gonna work on her hobbies. So you can't be asking me a million questions and I'm just gonna be doing this thing. And it's like, let's just be better be like, Okay, you need to be in your room now. You know, we're really together a lot of family And like, we do one-on-one time with them. And so I feel like asking for a few hours at night is not a big deal. But I don't know.

And I love love what questions you're asking Elisa. And ultimately, so let's let's be super articulate about what the needs are, right? So the needs that I'm hearing from her are that she's, she's maybe feeling a little bit bored, right? She's looking for sort of joy and play in some way. And also maybe connection with you as well. And you're looking for some sense of rest, as well as sort of order in the house, right? The things that you're trying to get done, the tasks you're trying to get done, as well as companionship and collaboration with your partner and spending spending time connecting with your partner. Does that seem like the needs that we're working with?

Yeah, yeah, we've got pretty good.

Yeah. So so then what we're going to be trying to look for is, what kinds of activities help your daughter to feel that sense of joy and fun, right, in potentially in her room, and maybe trying to meet a need for connection. at other times. Maybe there's some particular activity she loves to do that helps her feel connected with you. And if she can do that during the day, then that will meet her need for connection, and she won't be trying to get it at the end of the day. So everyone says six is definitely old enough to have that conversation with about what kinds of things make her feel loved, right? That's always a lovely question to ask your child is like, what kinds of things do I do that make you feel loved? And how can we do some more of those. And then obviously, you said you're working on incorporating more self-care time earlier in the day, which has already created a bit little less pressure, a little more ease around the end of the day, which is great. I think we can also look at are there other ways other times that you can connect with your husband, right? Could you have breakfast together? Are there weekend hours that you can be together? Are there things that you can do that don't involve watching adult shows that your child can't be exposed to those kinds of things, so that you can you can potentially meet all of your needs, and meet her some of her needs as well.

And some of those meeting some of those needs involves her being in her room. And as she gets, you know, she says she's kind of on the cusp of, okay, you know, Mom is busy right now, and is not going to respond. Mom and dad are busy right now, and is not going to respond. And the more that we're sort of setting that expectation, the more she's going to be able to take that on. And what you're doing there is you're essentially setting a boundary. You're trying to the greatest extent that you can to meet both of your needs. And then where we acknowledge, you know. I'm sorry, I don't see a way to meet your need right now for connection, if your need is for connection right now, and also meet my need. And I'm happy to connect with you earlier in the day. And tomorrow, we can spend time doing this thing that you love to do. And right now I'm taking time for me. And how are you with boundaries?

I'm a little less solid than I should be.

Yeah, boundaries are tough.

But I'm more I'm definitely a work in progress on that. Because I've been a people-pleaser all my life. So I'm definitely working on coming out of the people-pleasing. And it's been hard for the relationships around me because they're definitely like, whoa, what's happening here, she's doing something totally different. I don't know what's going on. And they're like, I don't like this. And I'm like, I'm sorry. This is what I need to do for me now. Like, I've learned a lot. This is what I need. So

How does it feel to acknowledge that, to take up that space?

Hard, very hard, because I've always tried to take up as little space as possible and to make everyone else's lives as easy as possible. So, you know, even in parenting, like doing boothbook and being in the membership, it just helps me be more firm. Like, this is how I want to raise my children and have a community behind me to back it up.

Yeah, because it's important that they have boundaries.

I can relate to that a lot because I think that with changing these generational patterns of how we approach parenting, and being a people-pleaser, myself too, because I am a huge people-pleaser. It's some times hard to hold my boundaries not only with my children, but with the people around me who are experiencing my children in their own ways and interacting with them in their own ways. And also with me trying to hold my boundaries with my children hold my boundaries with others who are interacting with my children to support the kind of life that I want my kids to be able to have and protect them and foster an environment where they are allowed to have their own boundaries, just like I'm allowed to have mine. And it's really hard. And I can relate to you 1,000% because there are times I shrink away, because it seems easier in the moment. And then I come back later and say, Oh, I could have held that boundary. And I, maybe I should have.

Yeah, I think that's the that's a big part of how we're socialized, right? It's easier in the moment. It's easier in the moment just to let ourselves get walked all over. And then it builds up and it builds up. and it builds up until we realize that our needs are not being met in any way, shape, or form. And then it tends to come out in a more or less explosive way. So yeah, these are the lessons that we hope our children are going to learn now, and not in midlife, the way that we're learning. So we were talking about ideas that have helped. And so we worked through a little, you know, understanding needs. And so at least I think you had some thoughts on ideas that have helped and things that you're putting into practice already based on the book.

Yeah, so I think it actually ties really nicely into what we were doing. I'm definitely also a recovering people-pleaser. And one of the things that I really liked both, I mean, also for my kids, but even for myself is the needs cupcake. If you want to describe the needs cupcake before we talk about it, since

I'm fascinated that the needs cupcake is something everybody gravitated towards. We kind of threw that in at the last minute. I was basically trying to think of a visual metaphor for understanding that when we're trying to figure out what what people's needs are. If we're looking at a list of 50 needs, we're looking at thinking how am I supposed to know which is the need that I'm trying to meet or my child is trying to meet, when most of the time we're trying to meet the same needs over and over again. And so for our children very often it's connection, it's autonomy. For some kids, it's sensory needs that are super high up there. So we think of that as the cherry on top of the cupcake. And underneath that there's a layer of frosting and I was gonna call it icing but because icing in England is like really, really thin. And I was like, no visually, that's not gonna work. It's got to be frosting. And so the frosting is the next three to five needs that they're most often trying to meet. And then the cupcake, it sort of the cake underneath is everything else that we can consider. So when we start up there at the cherry, we're looking at our child's most common needs, if it's not that, okay, let's look at the frosting, see if it's a three to five next most common needs. If there's not that, then we consider the rest of the potential options. So how's the cupcake help?

Yes, so I think for me, yeah, and maybe I'm just a slow learner. But as you said, there's like those needs that like really are the ones that come up all the time. But somehow I hadn't realized that. Just kind of having that awareness and really noticing it, I even noticed today, like I was just starting to feel on edge, I was trying to feel frustrated, you know, the whole, like, starting to feel walked all over. And then I was like, sound, like really sensitive to sound, I have one shot was just a naturally very loud voice, I have another child who gets very excited. And can also and instead of trying to, I mean, instead of kind of just getting more and more on edge or telling them to be quiet or anything else like yes, sound I go just put in my earplugs and keep doing what I'm doing, right. And I think it would have taken me much longer to realize that or, I mean, I've had, yeah, I bought your plugs, like a year ago when I realized that this was affecting me, but I never think to put them in and now just kind of having that like, oh, that's what's kind of pushing me over the edge right now. And it's just there as opposed to like, I'm just feeling frustrated. Yes, exactly.

So it was just so helpful to have that and, and then it's kind of similar. I kind of I've noticed that since I started thinking about it that way with my kids, you know, it's so when one of them is really just feeling really upset or really overwhelmed. It just helps me understand more quickly, kind of what what could be going on for them, and then really help help them with that. So yeah, I found that, that visual and kind of having sat down and they're just I mean, I kind of know so it didn't take long to kind of sit down and and write down okay, these are the main things and now that I know the mean the mean things, it's easier to just pull them up when you did.

Yeah, And what kinds of needs are you seeing in your children that are coming up over and over again?

Well, they're very different. So I think for the for the younger one, I'm not sure I have a good word for it. But it's it's not quite, it's like he like there's some people or things you really identifies with, and he wants to feel close to them. I don't know what what word captures that. But that's it. So like, he was really upset about the clothing options that I had available. It was a laundry day, there were not so many things that and some of it I know some of it is sensory, but that stuff I've kind of mostly sorted out. And then I was like, and then I realized that, oh, he was gonna watch tennis match. And he really likes tennis right now. And so he wanted the he wanted those shorts because he wanted to feel like the tennis player that he's watching. Right? So kind of knowing that, okay, he's identify, And that's not something like that feels like several steps. But once I realized that, okay, it's this kind of feeling closeness to these things he's really passionate about. So then I was able to, you know, okay, find someone like my daughter sold shorts, which me was similar, but like, I would never have thought to do that, if I hadn't kind of realized, okay, these are like some of the things that really he really cares about. And he is three, right, so you can't like, fully express? Yeah.

Yeah. And that so very easily could have devolved into just put these other shorts on. Why is this a big deal, right? But because you're able to understand that needs, you're able to think of a creative way of meeting his need, right? That that involves somebody else's shorts, who cares? If we can let go of our sort of fixation on this is how it has to go, your shorts are in the wash. And so these are the shorts that are available. Just put them on, when we can let go of that a little bit, then we can come up with these really creative ways of meeting our child's need, which lo and behold, happens to meet our need for ease and peace and collaboration. And the struggle is gone. Right? That's such a cool story. Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah, I think that's what I appreciate the most is like, the creative ways that it helps get rid of the struggle, because I don't want it to starve. I just want to be in a like, great relationship with my kids. And that's one of the reasons I want to homeschool is because I just want to have a great lasting relationship with them. You know?

Yeah, have you been able to use it to address a long standing struggle so far?

I love that Ellen's brought up earplugs, because I'm also very, very sensitive to sound. And my son is very, I don't want to say loud, but he's very excited and very, I don't know the word, enthusiastic about all things in life. And so it comes out in very loud tones. And my daughter is also very, very probably more sensitive to sounds, and even I am. And so when we're in the car specifically is a time whenever he's very vocal, whenever he's not getting a need met, he uses sounds or you know, yelling to try and feel heard or seen. And so recently, I actually bought earplugs specifically for the car for myself and for my daughter. And even though she's still kind of getting used to the adjustment and she doesn't always want to wear them. I'm we're also trying headphones, we're trying other things to kind of help with sound barrier because it's something I can handle. All car fights so much better now that I have thought about the idea of just putting in earplugs because even though it doesn't take away everything, it just minimizes enough that I can then focus on a driving and being out losing my mind with all the loudness happening in the back seat.

Yeah, yeah. And it's so easy again for that to become a you know, a real disaster of an interaction in the car, right when kids are fighting with each other.

We've had a long history of unhappy car rides. And I think that in kind of approaching since I joined the Parenting Membership, specifically in Kyle looking at Jim knows this about me, I am a recovering control freak on top of everything else. So I have been gentle parenting for the majority of my daughter's life, but I'm doing it in such a way with choices versus, you know, autonomy to problem solve together even though we've incorporated that in some ways across the board. It's still usually like you get this or this before now. So speaking of the cupcake two, I really have enjoyed that. The visual for meeting needs because it has definitely helped me to identify some key needs for both of my children. And of course, like Elisa said, my children are very different from one another. But it's helped me to kind of hone in and to start those conversations outside of our disagreements, so in more calmer disagreements or misunderstandings, talking about, you know, I think your brother has a need for connection and play and fun with you, because that is his main need that he's continually searching for, and specifically with his older sister. And she is has a need for autonomy and independence. And so they're in conflict with one another a lot. And so we talked about finding ways to do that. And I think that kind of the cherry on top has been really helpful for me, because of the fact that I can almost always guess that that is what's going on with both my children. Elena is almost always looking for independence, autonomy, individuality. And Damian is almost always looking for connection with me or his sister through fun and play is one of his main strategies.

Yeah, that's awesome. So how has knowing that helped? What kind of strategies have you come up with? And of course, it's not just one strategy is going to work every single incident, but one of the kinds of strategies you've been using now.

So one of the big things for us in our home is that now that why don't when I finally clicked in the Parent Membership, that my son's main, consistent need is connection with his sister, because he gets a lot of connection with me kind of inherently already, I started kind of telling Lena like, hey, it sounds like your brother's wanting to participate in what you're doing. Is there a way he can participate that you're comfortable with? And so she would start to delegate, like, oh, I mean, you can do this, because then she got to still have that autonomy, of deciding what's going to happen. But she got to include him in a way that she was comfortable with. And I've started kind of seeing her take it on, it's harder, the longer they've been around each other in the day, because then by the end of the day, she's also just kind of like, okay, I need ease, I need to not have to think. But it's definitely helped me redirect, because one of the things that my son will do, whenever he's not feeling connected to his sister, he'll lash out physically, because she reacts instantly, to him, scratching, hitting, biting all the things that we don't want. And we're working on as a family understanding that we need to take a pause in between his action and our reaction, because the thing that gets him so consistently doing it is that she immediately screams, growls back, yells at him something and it gives him the attention even if it's not what he would want from her.

And it actually escalated a lot recently, And I was really, really proud of Elena, she actually called me into the bathroom the other night and asked me if we could have a private conversation. And I said, of course, and I said, you know, I don't know if your brother's gonna want to be locked outside the bathroom. I said, we'll try it. And if he knocks, I'm gonna let him in. And then we can hit pause, and start again. And she actually looked at me, because it's been several weeks of her physically lashing out back, because she had just gotten to the point where she was fed up. And she looked at me and she said, "Mom, I need help with my big moods." And I said, "Oh, I was like, what big moods are we talking about?" She said, "I don't like hurting Damian." And I said, "I think Damian likes it when you hurt him either." And I said, "I don't think I can tell that it makes you sad when you're, whenever it ends. Nobody's happy after we're being this way with each other." And I said, "What, what is something I can do to help?" And she said, "I don't know." And I said, "Okay." And I said, "Well, we've talked about how whenever Damian reacts in this way to you, because he wants your attention that you snap back super fast. Is that how can we create a pause for you? What can we do?" And she said, I don't know when I said, Okay, I was like, "Well, I've told you before you can come to me physically move to me, and I will help to be a barrier if you feel unsafe." And I said, "But I think sometimes in the moment you forget that. So what's something else we can do? And I said do I need to say pause?" And she said "Yeah, I think that would help. And so on top of that in the car, circling back to the earplugs, when it happens in the car and I'm driving and I cannot be a barrier because I'm in the front seat. I've now in this past week started seeing pause and I'll reach one hand back and hold her hand. And so it keeps her from reaching across with set hand to swipe back and gives her something to squeeze because she knows she can squeeze me can as hard as she wants. And I'm not going to tell her now because it doesn't hurt. But it helps her to get that physical aggression out.

And so it's been very helpful. I guess creating a space face for her to be able to identify that she wants to help, And then figuring out how to have that problem solving conversation. And when it goes well, like there are times where I will hear her say, "Damian, I don't like when you when you hit me, did you want me to do something" And he'll say, "Watch me." And then I'll still have to sometimes go in there and say, okay, he said, Watch him, he actually means that you can't just hear him say what he wants, And then do something different. Because then we're not solving them. We're not meeting the need. Were hearing but not putting it into action. I said, if you're not willing to do it, then you can't say you're going to. So That was a long rabbit hole, too.

It was, but it was a beautiful rabbit hole.

That's so helpful because now that you mentioned it, my kids are having, he has a need for connection with his sister, I see the same thing playing out and I'm like, Oh, wait. I love what she just said. And I totally implement that. Because I just saw it, you know. So thank you.

It was a big eye opener for me whenever I realized that was one of his needs, because I kept, you know, we've talked so much about connection with parents. And yeah, that is such a key thing. But he gets so much connection with you, because he's physically on me as often as he possibly can be. And then it hit me that he's not lashing out at me. He's not really trying to get my attention. He's trying to get hers and I was like, Oh, he wants connection with her. And then it just clicked.

Yeah. It's such a lightbulb moment. And we think I think a lot of parents think that, you know, my kid is hitting me, or my kid is hitting their sibling. And the lesson I need to transmit here is it's not okay to hit. And if I can get that lesson across, then they will stop hitting and then things will be better. And well our children know, they're not supposed to hear, right? We've told them this a bazillion times, that there's no lack of information. The struggle we're having is they have this unmet need. And I liken it back to an example of a time when I picked a fight with my husband over you know, it was ostensibly over the dishwasher, right? And I'm sick of unloading the flippin dishwasher. And I could have gone to him and said, "You know, I want unmet need for collaboration, and I'm feeling overwhelmed. And would you please help?" But I didn't. I went to him and I picked a fight with him. And that's what our kids are doing. They're picking a fight saying, "I have an unmet need. And I don't know how to tell you or I don't think you will listen to me if I say it."

And what you've done is you've created a family environment where it's okay to express that need, And make a request. And it's also okay for the other person to say no, right? We're not assuming that the other person is automatically going to say, "Yes, I'm going to help you meet my need." But they're at least going to hear it, they're at least going to consider it. And they're either going to say, "Yes, I'm willing to help you meet that need in this moment." Or "I don't see a way that that meets my need right now, and so I'm going to set a boundary." And that's such an amazing set of skills to have in our family and to have our children take out into the world as well.

So I mean, the all of the people-pleasing stuff that has been going on for you, and that has made life so hard for you, you are dismantling that in your relationships with your children, so that they will be able to set boundaries for themselves with other people, without saying I don't love you anymore, right. That's not what a boundary communicates, even though that's the way we grew up thinking about it. They're just saying this doesn't meet my needs. Right now, if we can come up with another way to meet your need that also meets mine, I'm perfectly willing to do that. Such an amazing example. Thank you so much.

I loved it. And I think what you're saying Jen also is just like so key, like how your older one is then evaluating their own needs. I also have a three year old and a six year old. The younger one is a boy and the older one is a girl and in the interactions for a long time I was I was doing this like really uncomfortable dance where I'm like, when he needs something. Right? Well, first of all, he's smaller, right? So he's he needed and he just needed a lot. And when he needs something, I of course try to meet any needs, but when and how and how much do I ask her to write because I also don't want to be this perpetuating this thing that I grew up with where you know, the girl is all you know. And just continuing eating the continuing this there. I can talk about perpetuate what I've grown up with right and continuing that cycle of patriarchy.

And one of the things that I've been kind of slowly teasing apart and the book in this conversation has has really just helped reinforce is that it's okay, if she does things for him, if her needs are being met. It's totally fine for her to pull him around and do whatever he wants to do, as long as she has, you know, she's understands her needs, particularly two needs, which he asked them and they can work together. And that's just kind of lifted weights of okay, when, you know, trying to figure out what is a balance? So is it too much? Is it not enough? Because it's really, yeah, they're just such individual, different people. And it doesn't matter what it looks like from the outside as long as like, internally, they are okay.

Yeah, that's so true. And it can come across to other people as this is permissive parenting, right, that you don't tell your kids what to do. So clearly, you're getting walked all over. Because there's no other way of being in a relationship. If you're not telling them what to do, then you aren't getting walked all over. And what we're saying is that, well, if you're, if you're older daughter's needs are getting met, and your your son's needs are getting met, right, that there's no problem in that relationship. And the same goes for us parents, if our needs are being met by doing this thing that, you know, our parents would never have let us do or whoever is the outside observer would never have let us do. But if that meets our needs, why are we saying no to it? We can if we can let that go. If we can let that kind of judgment or implied judgment or internalized judgment go a little bit, we can actually find what our real need is and work towards meeting that need and meeting our child's need as well. I mean, it's just a beautiful way of being in relationship with other people really is.

I would say, for sure. It's been a little bit of a challenge for close relationships, because because like my sister, I'll go ahead and ask my kids like, on a Saturday, we don't have a really big plan. But it'll be like, do you want to go to this or go do this with one parent or the other? Just in general, as a family, my sister's, like, just drag them along and make them do it? And I'm like, no, why would I do that? They are a person, they have autonomy over their time to like, if they don't want to go do something with one parent, then they can stay home with the other parent. And the other parent has things they need to do. So it's just kind of like, hit a wall. Sometimes with some people you're like, no, sorry.

And the key is that it meets both of your needs, right? It meets your husband's need, if he's staying home, it meets your need, if you're going out that you really you're not, you know, I'm super frustrated, because they won't come with me or because they are coming with me or whatever it is. That either option is really fine with you, that your needs are actually being met. And then yeah, that say, you know, is this permissive is too strict. It's just just irrelevant. Because it's just people getting their needs met.

Yeah. And then, you know, you come with you, And they decide that they're not okay with the, you know, you can work with them and be like, Okay, well, you just added column, and we saw some stuff we need to get done. And we're gonna get the things done. And then we'll go home.

Yeah, yeah. Is anyone needing more support? Have any of you tried something and you're like, oh, I don't know if that was what was supposed to happen or any, any way that we can help you to keep moving these these tools forward and implementing them in your relationships with your children?

I think for me, the thing that needs the most work is me. And so I'm on that journey on kind of my own outside of my parenting journey, even though it's obviously intertwined. And so while I'm learning a lot, and I'm trying new strategies to meet our needs, I could I think, for me, the core of where I'm at, in my struggles, is adjusting and identifying and healing the patterns of behavior that I grew up with and have conditioned myself to adhere to. And then also allowing myself to be okay with the fact that I can't do all the things I want to do with changing my parenting behavior in the snap of a finger because I really wish I could just go okay, you're not a control freak anymore.

And let go of all these things that I know I don't want to exude in my parenting strategies that are just so ingrained in how I was brought up and how I was conditioned within previous relationships. And so, I think that for me, there's so much good information and I'm like, okay, one day I'm going to be able to do this and I do little bits here and there as I can. And giving myself the grace and permission to not be perfect at it is kind of the main thing for me, that is a continual line of struggle for me is allowing myself that time and permission to heal and not be perfect and not be able to master this, this new approach anytime necessarily in the immediate future.

Yeah, it's so important. And if I could offer maybe two ideas on that the first is getting clear on what your values are. So that you can be moving towards what your values are that it's not like you know, a recipe where you're going to bake up the ingredients in just the right order and come out with the perfect cake. And we're going to have arrived, because we're never going to arrive. It's more roughly where are we headed. And if we end up anywhere in that set of islands, we're going to we're going to have sailed in the right direction. And then when you're on that journey, I think self-compassion is so important that our culture just teaches us well, you know, if you have the knowledge, you have the information, then all you need to apply is willpower, and you will make the change.

So if you haven't made the change yet, then clearly you haven't been supplied enough willpower. So it is your fault that this thing has not happened. And so you better beat yourself up and apply some more willpower so that you can make that happen. And maybe that works for a few people doesn't work for most of us. It's not really how our brains learn. And so if we can instead when we see yes, my values over here, and oh, yeah, right now I'm heading in that direction, not towards my values. That's a real moment to to decide, okay, how do I want to be in this moment? When I see that I'm heading off in a different direction? Do I want to keep kind of self flagellating, beating myself up? No, I'm gonna take a breath, I'm gonna acknowledge that this is hard. This is hard to overcome these battering. Anybody would find this difficult. It's not that I'm, you know, a uniquely terrible parent. This is difficult. And I am not alone in this struggle. And there are other people around me in community, and I can next time, you know, put whatever practice into place that when I get into this situation, again, I will then maybe I will be helped and supported in heading in the direction of my values.

But it's really kind of holding ourselves with that sense of compassion that we would treat a friend, right. I mean, I think I've been on a coaching call with you, Kat, right, where we've talked about, how would I treat a friend in this difficult situation? And then how would I speak to myself? And the discrepancy is like a this is like the Grand Canyon. Yeah, so I'm very guilty of that. Yeah. Very guilty. So just a climber welfare. So can we can we build a bridge over that canyon and treat ourselves in the same way that we would treat a dear close friend who was struggling with the same thing can help us to head in that direction? Anyone else want to share anything else that's difficult right now that you're having a hard time with needs support with?

I'm sort of wishing I planned ahead on this a little bit. And I'm wondering if I can spring this on you and ask you, if either of you if any of you have any questions you would like to ask me? Is there anything that's on your mind about the book and how it was written? Or something that's in the book that you have? Like, really, anything is on your mind that you want to ask me?

Is there anything you wish you could have included? But didn't or could it?

Oh, my gosh, so much. We were cutting. And I mean, you may notice there are not many empty pages. So we really jammed everything in there that we could. And I mean, I cut so much content throughout the way, I mean, just chunks of stuff and then tightening up things here and there just to fit on fewer pages. So definitely the preamble part right, the setting the scene part could have been a lot longer. And I think in some ways that would have had benefits and drawbacks, right? It would have it would have spent a lot more time on issues that are really weighty and really important. But at the same time, I think most parents want the tools right? They want parenting to be easier. And so I think it's also a good thing that we spent a lot of time on, on those tools and resources. And if we had to sort of cut one to make the other happen, I'm really glad that actually it came out with with more time on the tools and resources. That yes, there was there was definitely a lot I mean footnotes oh my goodness, I could I could spend weeks and weeks and weeks writing footnotes. I love books with footnotes and so I had to definitely restrain myself there well.

Yeah, maybe I'll say one thing that I'm really glad that you included were a bunch of the examples from parents as well, I forget what chapter was in but where you said kind of like additional things that make this hard, right? Because I think it's so many I've just yet and so many parent books and so many examples, it just like feels like magic and I don't know about you guys, but yeah, it is not magic for me. Yeah, and there's I mean, different layers that make it harder for us, I'm sure there's different layers that make it easier than for others. Right. So kind of going through, you know, parents who have different types of neurodivergence that makes it harder different kinds of disabilities that make it harder and kids who have, you know, more sensory needs or things like so just kind of having that like explicitly acknowledged and examples of people who are walking through this and making it work and seeing like, just these beautiful connective results. And I mean, not that result, but like, these beautiful connective moments with the kids, by by doing this that was just really meaningful, which is really, yeah. Let me be seen against that. So I'm really glad you included that.

And, yeah, maybe to put you on the spot, so I agree a lot of these things is just like some I feel like I'm dually doing it, because I think it's so important, so valuable, and just so important for myself, for my kids for the world. And then as you said, it also actually makes a lot of things easier. Kind of, once you once you learn, I mean, it's both hard, really hard and much, much better. Like just so wonderful. Once it's all clicking into place. So is is parenting easy for you now?

Oh, gosh. Um, so let me come back to that for a second. Because I just want to acknowledge what you said on the, you know, the including samples. And yeah, that was that was one of the most fun parts of writing the book actually was, was collaborating with parents to gather their stories and to really hear because some of this, you know, I've heard in communities and heard little bits of it. And then to hear the whole thing of how it played out was really cool.

And yeah, the section on neurodivergence was definitely a late, late entering section. And I think it came actually out of reading a comment in a Facebook group somewhere of a parent saying, you know, respectful parenting sounds amazing. But I don't have time just sit next to my kid having a meltdown on the school steps every single day, because I got three jobs, and I gotta go to work. And so I had to think really carefully about how does this apply in a whole bunch of different situations where parents are really, really struggling. And neurodivergence, I think, is one of those things that can make these things harder. So yeah, so it was really lovely to hear from parents who are going through a variety of struggles, And I guess, maybe kind of in parent Maria's where it's in the book, you know, she said, "If you don't have to do this stuff perfectly. If you do it consistently, but not perfectly, you start to move in the direction of your values." And I think that can be so freeing, right that you you don't have to get it say exactly the right thing, because there isn't a right thing to say. And that's why I think you you struggle with the examples in some books, because the situation just plays out perfectly. And that's why there are no scripts in this book there. There's a conversation starter scripts that give you the first 10 words of how to say a non -judgmental observation how to understand what somebody's needs are. But I can't fill in the rest for you because I don't know what your needs are. I don't know what your child's needs are. So, so that comes from your relationship with them. But yeah, it was it was, I think, a really important part to include. And I'm so glad that that that that resonated for you.

And then is parenting easy? Oh, gosh. I'm not I wasn't dodging the question. I would say it's not that it's easy, although I would say, I mean, comparatively speaking, I'm not stressed about parenting. Right. I actually talked to another parent in a community that I'm in recently and she's like, you seem so calm. Yeah, most most of the time I am. And so we have challenges. Is the thing, the challenges still come up, the challenges don't stop coming up. But because we have these tools to be able to address them, they don't feel so big, they don't feel so overwhelming.

And so that I think reduces my stress level, gives me more capacity to do things that I really care about that are meaningful to me. And and also just kind of give us a relationship where yeah, we are dismantling the all of these social forces that that shaped my relationship with my parents, with my family with my community. We I mean, we're not just dismantling it, but we're talking about how we're doing it right. So instead of metacognitive level of, yeah, my parent would never have let me speak to speak to him in the way that you spoke to me just now and, and I'm having a really big reaction to that. And I'm just gonna pause and and reregulate myself because I don't want to have that same relationship with you that I had with my dad and Okay, now, now I'm better able to be with you and I can hear that you're having a really hard time with this. And let's talk about that. And let's understand what your need is.

So, so I don't think easy is the right word, but joyful and fulfilling and exciting and fun, I guess they are probably probably the right words to use.

So what a lovely note to end on. And thank you so much for, for bringing us in that direction. And thank you for being here. Thank you for reading the book early. I know you took time away from vacations from time with your kids to, to spend on this and I'm so grateful that you really gave it so much thought and came in with such a beautiful conversation. It was really lovely to have you all here.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Don't forget that Jen's book will be out in August and will help make parenting easier. If you want to be notified about book readings near you or maybe bring in Jen to your town for a workshop, just visit YourParentingMojo.com/book