184: How to get on the same page as your co-parent

Jessica: 00:03

Do you get tired of hearing the same old intros to podcast episodes? Me too. Hi, I'm not Jen. I'm Jessica. And I'm in rural East Panama. Jen has just created a new way for listeners to record the introductions to podcast episodes, and I got to test it out. There's no other resource out there quite like Your Parenting Mojo, which doesn't just tell you about the latest scientific research on parenting and child development, but puts it in context for you as well, so you can decide whether and how to use this new information. If you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox along with a free infographic on 13 Reasons Your Child Isn't Listening To You - And What To Do About Each One, sign up at YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe And come over to our free Facebook group to continue the conversation about this episode. You can also thank Jen for this episode by donating to keep the podcast ad free by going to the page for this or any other episode on YourParentingMojo.com. If you'd like to start a conversation with someone about this episode, or know someone who would find it useful, please vote it to them. Over time, you're gonna get sick of hearing me read this intro as well, so come and record on yourself. You can read from a script she's provided or have some real fun with it and write your own. Just go to YourParentingMojo.com and click Read the Intro. I can't wait to hear yours.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:20

Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. We are here today with two very special guests Sarah and Declan who are joining us from I think somewhere in Western Australia. We've had some timezone confusion. Sarah and Declan, welcome. It's great to have you here. I wonder if you wouldn't mind letting us know who you are where you are in the world? Yeah, for sure.

Declan: 01:44

Yeah, we live in Western Australia, in the southwest of WA on Canyon Country. There's five of us. So there's Sarah, myself, who have three kids, Paulo, who's five, who's three and Allah, who's one or 18 months.

Sarah: 02:00

Hi, I'm pediatric speech therapist and definitely a psychologist.

Declan: 02:04

We're renovating.

Sarah: 02:05

Yeah, life is quite chaotic at the moment because we're renovating, definitely just started a small business. So we're running a private practice as well. I've returned to work part time, and we're also homeschooling, This is our first year of more formalized homeschooling. So…

Declan: 02:24

It's a bit going on. But…

Jen Lumanlan: 02:27

Yes. There's a lot going on in your lives. And I'm also curious about kind of how you got to this point, right? What was growing up like for you?

Sarah: 02:37

So we're both from like White middle class family. And so if we do have a lot of privilege We've sort of both had quiet, I'd say we'd describe them as sort of happy childhoods. But then I think, going through like we've been able to sort of unpack a bit about the things that have shown up and definitely for me, it's really been a process of sort of understanding intergenerational trauma. I think it's showing up in my family, specifically. And that's probably what we spend a lot of time discussing. I remember, I always had a very close relationship with my mom. So we were we were very close. But there was sort of ways that her childhood showed up, like in our family, and definitely in my relationship with her. She was very nurturing mum, and she sort of experienced cognitive and emotional neglect as she was growing up. And that made her really focused on words of love, and affirmation, and praise. And she definitely said all of that things, but she was quite anxious mom, and, and there were other things as well. She had undiagnosed Postpartum Depression, depression, and she had me and my brother very close, so we were 14 months apart. She didn't have a lot of family support as well. So yeah. And I think it sort of changed, like, as I was growing up, through some early work that I've done through Taming Your Triggers that probably the first time I really have talked to my mom about certain different things and talking about my early childhood, because there was really sort of no stories about me having a hard time, like as a toddler having tantrums or, you know, when I was talking about the big feelings thing, and I was sort of like," Oh, okay," but Declan had sort of said, "That's pretty unusual." And obviously, we, at that time, we were going through some things with my little girl. It was too and so fiery, and having all of these big feelings, which was quite confronting for me, because I think I thought of having little girl I just, I think I assumed unconsciously that she would be like me as a child. And as a child, I was very shy and quiet, which my parents did comment on a lot in introductions or to explain I mean, like how I was, and how I showed up in the world. So, yeah, talk down to the bit now. But that's sort of the first time that we sort of were talking about those things. And I think that's when I was able to sort of piece together that even from that really young age, like two, three, that's already already learned, that was my job, to not give them a hard time, because she was having such a hard time. And my brother, definitely, he did express his big feelings, and he did take more time and energy to parent and to regulate, and they needed to spend time putting him to bed every night, you know, until he was five. That was a big story in our family. So I think that was my job. And that definitely carried through, probably until the teenage years where more conflict started showing up. And again, that's where some of the interplay between my mom's upbringing in mine came so ahead. With obviously as a teenager, I wanted to start socially more going to parties, but sleepovers. And that's sort of when a lot of things came up from my parents. And they were quite strict in controlling during that kind of time, because of all the things from, like my mom's childhood. And I think that led to quite some sort of repeated like ruptures in our relationship, which we always were able to repair. But now that I know more about her pain, it wasn't necessarily functional repair. In those situations where I would get quite upset, we would have really long discussions and talk it through until the point where we were able to like emotionally reconnect. But I think it was sort of, basically how it came to was any decision that was made, I sort of just had to accept that. And I kind of learned that I just wasn't allowed to have negative feelings around that. And then it was also my job, probably to make my mom feel okay.

Jen Lumanlan: 07:02

Yeah, it's almost like you were parenting yourself. Right?

Sarah: 07:04

It is, yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 07:05

Once you stopped being the shy little girl and started to have your own ideas, your parents didn't know what to do with that, until you realize, "Okay, it's better not to just say anything better to keep the peace." That's hard, even though you started out by describing it as a pretty happy childhood. There's still a lot of hard stuff there. So definitely wondering, can you tell us a little bit about what your life was like growing up?

Declan: 07:25

I think it was a pretty good childhood. Overall, we were kind of opposite. We didn't talk about our feelings very much. So if there was conflict, everyone would kind of go away and disappear for a while and come back a few hours later, and can like nothing happened. So that was kind of how we resolved conflict. Mom and Dad were just they were right. There wasn't much in the way of discussions around our experiences and our needs. It was just what they thought about something was right. So most of the time, it wasn't a problem, like because we're all kind of just fine. And we had a pretty easy life so there wasn't much in the way of difficulties. So there are a few key moments that really, like I have a few key memories of times that approach was just not really good. It obviously left a mark. We spend a lot of time together, but I don't think we're particularly close because we didn't share like our emotional experiences. So we we talk like heaps like all the time about and family dinners, and we talk about politics and world events, and history and all this kind of stuff, so those had these, like really robust discussions. But yeah, we weren't actually but we didn't know anything about each other's lives really. As I got older, as we all got all of that kind of got more noticeable, because you're not spending so much time together, you may spend more time with friends. And then when can we all start to move out, that's, you know, obviously, when those kinds of things came obvious, so that was like, the main feature of my upbringing. It was that we were, we just didn't share a lot emotionally so I had to do like a lot of deregulating myself, which I think is fine, because I'm naturally a fairly like, even person. So that wasn't the kind of too difficult, but certainly, I think it had some effects that have, like have come out in our relationship within parenting.

Jen Lumanlan: 09:15

Really? Tell me more.

Declan: 09:20

Yeah, my, my mom was the caring one. My dad was the authoritarian. So he would kind of stomped down if like, if something wasn't happening and what are you doing, he'd yell or is probably the standard one and he would often have the rules. I remember he had a car that had when you locked it, it made a beep. And we weren't like watch TV during during the week, but I watched TV during the week because he would always come home really late from work. And I'd hear that beep and I'd turn off the TV and start running around pretend like you know make it seem like I haven't been watching the TV and those kinds of things but I knew that he would respond with like a bit more aggression and anger. So was mum wouldn't kind of would generally do that. She was like the softer one. And that was kind of the role that she was able to take on. But she did, then use guilt sometimes, as a means to kind of like,

Sarah: 10:09

ensure compliance. Yes.

Declan: 10:13

My family and my upbringing.

Jen Lumanlan: 10:15

So you two came together, I know you've been together for a really long time. You know each other pretty well, by this time, I'm guessing, you sort of thought that things were kind of on an even keel, and we keep going and you become parents, and it'll be good. And so what was that like?

Sarah: 10:30

Yeah, we we have known each other for a really long time, like, we've been friends since we were 10 years old, and been together for 15 years this year. I think we feel as though we had a much more smooth transition to parenthood than perhaps other people that we know, because of a lot of the things we've been living together since the first year of our relationship. So in terms of a lot of those amalgamation of household things, and the roles that you play within that, and all that kind of stuff we'd talked a lot about.

Declan: 11:03

We've already done like, valleys stuff, if we have kids, when we like our mid 20s, who are talking about what our values are, and what that might look like,you know, in a lot. So yeah, we've done some of that work before we had kids. Yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 11:17

What was important to you at that point? What were some of those values that really stood out?

Sarah: 11:21

I think the cool thing that we found was, when we did our values, like separately, and we put them together the top three with the same time it was time, family, and health. Yeah, what's sort of our top ones, and then the other ones were different, kind of more, I think was like adventure, or like learning or, you know, those sort of different things. And I think that's where we're sort of able to identify, oh, this is where like conflict, you know, it does come up for us. And that's interesting. So, we did have that, in our minds, how important having values like aligning was like in a partnership.

Declan: 12:01

When we have our, it wasn't like, just having one kid we didn't find too challenging. He didn't sleep very well, for the first kind of six months. He didn't really sleep at all for the first six months, but we got very okay, because we just kind of like came up with a plan and worked together, you know, so we found a system that worked for us. And then we just did that until things got better.

Jen Lumanlan: 12:23

So you were able to get through this transition with the younger kids probably partly because definitely not as triggered by their behavior when they're so young. And because you have developed this kind of teamwork strategy that you've sort of perfected going through three kids now. Yeah. And then they get older, and they start doing different stuff, right? So but what was the the getting in transitioning to having older kids like?

Declan: 12:44

It was more the introduction of the other kids and expanding of the needs that were that was probably the thing we found difficult rather than that particular ages. So even with the second baby, I found that I was like, it's not probably until the third to have more difficulty, or as you found, like all and when I came along, that was a bit harder. That's when it started to get a bit harder.

Sarah: 13:11

Yeah, I think I sort of that, yeah, like I said, one, we do have quite content babies. So that's been really wonderful for for us.

Jen Lumanlan: 13:22

Aside from the sleeping thing.

Sarah: 13:26

But they've always been happy, you know, if they've been held, we haven't had to deal with a situation that I know where parents have dysregulated infants, and even if you're holding them, they're screaming. So it's more been yeah, as I said that, like toddler transition phase. So I don't really have remember having those hard parenting moments until he was sort of two and a half, which was when Odette was dying to sort of crawl for the first time. And that was confronting. And I think that's when I doubled down on parenting research, which had been the thing from for us from the start, that I was sort of moving straight in to painting research and doing it right from the start. So it wasn't until, yeah, the third little one, and I think it's with us learning about the window tolerances. Well, it all makes a lot of sense now, because we can see that it wasn't just an additional baby. But it was that as well, the renovations because when we say renovations, we don't just mean like paintings. We haven't had a kitchen for two years. We haven't had a kitchen sink, the bathrooms that we didn't have like really finished bathrooms. So that's sort of been happening this whole time over this transition to us becoming a family of five and we've just been having babies during this time whilst also like Declan has been the one doing most of the work on our house. And as I said that we've just also started, we were sort of thinking about starting a business and so it's all sort of all of those things were like culminating to, I think reduce increase the chaos. And as I've been saying the names, because again, they're all under five and a half still, so everybody has a lot of needs and often at the same moment.

Jen Lumanlan: 15:11

You know what's like coming up for us there, were there were there are certain types of interactions that were particularly challenging, or do you remember a specific thing that really kind of set you off?

Sarah: 15:19

Yeah, I think it was, it's been, especially my little girl. So when she so when our baby our baby was born, she just turned two. And yeah, and from a child development point of view, you know, we really understood like this is that time when they like developing that independence, and they're realizing that they're a separate person for me, and all of the conversations that I have with parents every day, but that was sort of showing up, you know, really, for the first time quite intensely. And that was the most difficult thing, I think I've come across in terms of feelings, because I just during those moments where she was having a hard time, it was so difficult for me to connect with her and to comfort her. And that was so confronting, because, obviously, like the comfort and a connection had been something that we were really easily naturally able to do, and when they were babies and as infants, and then this was sort of happening. And I think especially as well, things started happening where I was having a really difficult time in that moment. And it was just showing up really weirdly, like the chaos is happening, and Odette would be melting down and hard time. And I just feel like, oh, like cleaning and like organizing, you know, to try and like, because in my mind, I'm thinking, right, she's hungry, and those kids are hungry. And so I just need to get through all of these tasks, and then I can sit down and be with her.

Declan: 16:46

That was one of your anxiety strategies when you're like in your late 20s and stuff, like you get really anxious, you clean the house. And if the house the order and you you'll be able to think a bit more clearly so I think you would, you would just kind of falling back into that.

Sarah: 17:03

Yeah, trying to bring order to the chaos. But what we sort of saw in that time was then Odette was she really just seek out different straightaway then she'd like melted down, and she would just like turn around. And she would just like run to him. And what I noticed was, because he would just stop whatever he was doing. And he would be like, for work quite a lot during the day. Because what I noticed was that what he did is he would just connect with her physically. So as he was getting ready, he'd be like carrying her around, you know, from room to room and that would be really calming for her. So I think I started to sort of tune in to the difficulty that I was having, and then also watching, like, how she was responding in different situations. And that's when I was like, one, my anxiety came up a lot because like I need to do things differently, like you can see and I do that fast forward things that I like, I know that this can potentially really impact on our relationship if she learns so early that she can't come to me with hard feelings. Yeah, so that was it. I think.

Declan: 18:12

That was the point where you start to do a lot more. And that's how I found your podcast at around that time.

Jen Lumanlan: 18:20

Yeah, and definitely, I guess I'm also curious, because I can see that you're a real stabilizing force in the family. And also you have this kind of compliance-oriented background from your dad, right? And I'm wondering, does that create conflicts that are difficult for you to navigate difficult to see, like, how do I respond in this moment when I grew up with this model, and yet, I have this very different personality? How does that show up for you?

Declan: 18:41

So I think I have a pull when Sarah is upset, too, like, I naturally just start feeling a little bit like anxious and guilty. So then, I'm trying to work on my focus and tends towards like making yeah, maybe the kids okay to give Sarah a space or try and make things better for her. So that's probably what comes up, I mean, at that time in particular, as well. That's what came up a lot then. So, I mean, that would, yeah, it depends on what the situation was, what I would do. Sometimes I would help with the cleaning. Other times, I would just try and take on kind of all the all like the childcare role during that time. Yeah, so that was I think that's how my childhood came up in those times is that I would kind of just focus on trying to make Sarah feel better and kind of yeah, just be really worried about that. I think there are times when, like, Sarah was having a hard time and, you know, like, then I would feel like that I'm not doing things right because she wasn't okay.

Sarah: 19:51

I think we probably had a bit at different times. Like through how he transitioned from mold from different children. We have had different times where the person who's taking on majority of the caring which has been made, that person gets really good at figuring out, like how to do the things and do the routines. And we definitely moved through periods of negative navigating that, like, I recognized that I couldn't just be like, this is how we do it now. Like, this is their chain, it's a sleeping bag at this time.

Declan: 20:24

Yeah, that would definitely show up like, like, if, when I would take on those parenting things, I would do things slower or differently, like packing the bags, for example. Yeah, like I've tended towards just like, either not packing enough or packing too much, depending on whether or not I'll spin it. So I just start shoving stuff into the bag, like, "Oh, I'll just check, take lots of stuff, and I'm sure it'll be fine." Or just not thinking I'm gonna be like, "Oh, whatever, it will be fine." But either way, like, for sure to know, yeah, so but yeah, then so it would be like, that's not how you pack the bag, or that's not how you make the snack, so all that kind of stuff. And so I would feel, that's when my current parenting competence are challenged in that. But I think like in between those times, like the way like, I was always aware that it wasn't actually what, like how Sarah felt, or how I felt it was just how I was feeling. But I didn't, I haven't found it really difficult, I guess, because

Sarah: 21:20

And I think as, as little things have come up, we always have sort of discussed those, like during those moments, then definitely has always been able or been able to show me that he's received that as criticism. And that doesn't feel good to him in those situations. So then we're always sort of like editing, that how we're approaching those situations, and learning together like that's not a good way of empowering someone or increasing their confidence in certain situations.

Declan: 21:49

So yeah, I think, when Sarah first started researching, like parenting, I definitely took on more of like, the negative, not negative, but like, push back more on the ideas.

Sarah: 22:06

I guess we sort of describe it as Deco. So it's more like having veto powers. Everytime I win my research or my spiel, and like this is what I've learned and this is how I see it showing up, and this is how I think we can handle it. Yeah, I think we identified that in those situations sometimes it could end up as a bit of a lack of debate and interrogation. I would need to like make the case like, okay, so this is why I found and then indefinitely, sort of maybe during that time, maybe ask them questions or challenging things.

Declan: 22:37

Yes, like, when Sarah, she done like hours of research and I'd be like, I'm not so sure about that one.

Jen Lumanlan: 22:44

Psychologists hop on for a moment.

Declan: 22:47

Like being on a kind of got fully registered in 2017 when Allah was born. So I've been a psychologist for two years when we started having these hard times. And, you know, obviously, I was way too overconfident in my level of knowledge at that time. And so yeah, I kind of thought that I knew a lot of stuff, so instead, it would come with an idea. I'd be like, "Oh, no, I'm not too sure about that. I don't I disagree about this thing or that thing."

Sarah: 23:14

And probably the details, because as we say, our values will always sort of aligning underneath this sort of thing. But again, I think that's when we were able to start sort of having those conversations. And I think part of those conversations, we weren't able to sort of identify some patriarchy was sort of like showing up in situations like that.

Declan: 23:35

Yeah I took on a little more kind of masculine kind of role of, we'll be fine. There's nothing wrong. It's like, we just need to just, you know, yeah, we don't have to kind of make a big deal out of a kind of thing.

Jen Lumanlan: 23:49

And what was that like for you to receive sir? I see you smiling.

Sarah: 23:53

I think, as I sort of said, Declan is very easygoing, and he sort of just happy to sort of accept things and take things as they are. And obviously, I am that recovering perfectionist personality, you know, and wanting to do things right. And always, like, be better and do better. But I think, in our relationship, we've always just been able to say, like, I was able to say how I was receiving that feedback, I just was able to say like, "This feels like an interrogation." I've done this, because I want this for our family. And this is how it aligns with what we want. And what we've decided, as like, are our values. And then we sort of just able to zoom out and definiteness is very good at that. I think naturally because of the work especially that you do, he does hear a lot from people from parents and the person who's in that nurturing role. So a lot of moms, and he gets a bit of that insight into those traditional dynamics. So you're sort of able to very easily be like, oh, yeah, I can see how this isn't like an ideal place that we don't want to be this and that teamwork is the value of us then.

Declan: 25:02

Yeah. So that was my initial response was with those things, but I think we tended to get to work through it fairly quickly on kind of explained, like, how it made it feel like, I wasn't valuing her, you know, the manager really? Yeah, like the us is dismissing ideas and the effort and like the labor that she'd put it into this thing. So I'm able to move through that fairly quickly.

Jen Lumanlan: 25:31

So it seems like having having these shared values has been really important to you for a really long time now. And it almost seems like joining the membership was an extension of those values. It's like, how are we putting those values into effect, but I'm guessing that there were some hangups, like, there was some moments where you're like, "Ah, I don't know, if we really want to do this, are we going to spend the money? What What was that process like?

Declan: 25:50

Certain Taming Your Triggers, and found that pretty, like that was a pretty big step forward. But then it's just, you know, there's only a shortcut of time, and then the power on your own again.

Sarah: 26:04

And so I think the process of doing that, I know, you talk a lot, Jen about non-cognitive shift, so I thought of joking that I didn't receive one of those when I signed up Taming Your Triggers. And I think again, the perfection, I think it was really hard for me to feel like I wasn't doing as well as other people and my beautiful accounting buddies during that time. Were perhaps older, enabled to get some of that and assimilate the things. So I knew that I just needed to keep going, and I needed more support.

Declan: 26:44

But the main the main worry was like, again, like it flashes back up, you know, from time to time that, "Oh, I'm sure we don't need that." I'm sure we've got, you know, we've got your podcast, which is like, all information, you know, we've got, you know, you did Taming Your Triggers, like, you know, we've got enough to kind of go on with, and in the money aspect of it as well. I tend to be a bit stingy, sometimes with with money. So, you know, anytime there's just my interest, then I'm like, oh, no, like, I don't know if we should do that. So those are probably the two main concerns. But again, once Sarah was able to kind of explain, you know, her why it was important to her. And ultimately, like, it's not hard to it wasn't hard to kind of be like, "Yep, alright, let's do this." But they're probably the two biggest parents from my perspective.

Sarah: 27:29

And also we weren't concerned about concerned about time, obviously. Yeah, because we don't have any.

Jen Lumanlan: 27:39

Yeah, so how was that?

Sarah: 27:42

Being, we we've been surprised, because we definitely don't like ideally, I see us, you know, working through every single part of the module and having really long discussions about all the parts of it, and how we're going to practically incorporate it. But it's been like a really learn, like more learning for me definitely getting on board with Declan, we have sort of have, I guess I've made it a part of our routine is, we meet with our ACTion group once a week, at the same time, and that's provided so much structure for us. And it's just like, it's like a race that point every week that we talk about parenting. So even if we, things are shambles and we don't get all the way we don't have time to work through, like the content, we still have one little tiny goal that we've talked about, or that we've said, and it's just being able to show up in a community because we don't, we don't have a lot of like-minded community in terms of the way that we want to parent. So being able to do that and come and we do the call together every week.

Declan: 28:52

I think that's that was the beauty of the membership is that you can kind of how much or how little you engage with the content can is really flexible. So there there have been times where we've done the modules we've always sat down and watched them and have good conversation a good conversations about at other times where we haven't touched a module on two or three months, but you know, the coaching the ACTion groups are still there and so that you're always giving work even on times where it does, you don't have the time to kind of put towards it and then they will have more time and we'll catch back up on some of the modules and engage more fully with it and so yeah, that's what's been really nice about it. I think the other difference in particular about the Parenting Membership compared to like Taming Your Triggers is that we're doing it together where Taming Your Triggers, Sarah did that. And so she would kind of come and share ideas with me but we weren't in it as like a team and I think the parenting is a team module in the man in the membership was like obviously a really good summary of why that's important because we weren't a team was like Sarah was doing work on her stuff. And I was just like, listen about the interesting stuff. She's learning about and so whereas when Yeah, we've kind of made it so that the membership is something that we're doing together. So we're both working on it. So it's not Sarah's struggles and my struggles. It's like our struggles. And I think that that kind of small kind of shift has made a big difference in how we're supporting each other, and how you kind of feel about the whole whole situation and, and all that kind of stuff. So,

Jen Lumanlan: 30:25

Yeah, and so I'm thinking about how is it different than being in the membership versus just listening to the podcasts. And so the things I'm hearing from you are, it's sort of having the modules to guide you through, it's having the community, like the ACTion groups every week, if you want to join, but you don't have to join. But if you want to join to provide that structure, kind of a gentle accountability to keep showing up. And then the way that you approach it, you know, you can send a podcast episode to your partner and say, "Hey, listen to this," and then you get into the discussions that you used to have. And but it seems as though you fundamentally shifted how you show up in parenting? Because you've made this decision to do this as a team. So is that kind of the main differences between just kind of listening to the podcast and getting what you get out of that and being in the membership, do you think?

Sarah: 31:12

Definitely, like, as I said, we we listened to the podcast from really early on, I think, from when Abby was born 2017. And we were always having those discussions around that isn't this interesting? And oh, yeah, haven't thought about that. And that made me realize this, or that came up on This topic. So we were having those, like intellectual conversations, I think, and I didn't find the things that fit into our parenting philosophy. But it was sort of psyched up at that level, and not necessarily changing what we were doing day to day.

Declan: 31:46

I think that's the difference. As well as that the podcast, we were having to do all the work to try and apply it to see how it fits into our lives. And I think our jobs probably made that easier for us, because but it was still really hard. It's still hard to try and piece everything together. I think one of the things when you're kind of thinking about your, your parenting philosophy, you're hearing from all these different sources, and trying to see how they're all they're all gonna talk about things slightly differently. But you connect with all of them. And so it's about how do you how do you piece them all together? Whereas I think we just found the membership, like, because you just kind of in it more. And yeah, like, there's just more opportunity to like, kind of talk about it and see how other people are maybe using like, through circle, like, seeing how other people are using different ideas. And just talking things through with the ACTion group, like it all just really personalizes a lot more. And I think that was the big thing is that yeah, made it easier to action, that kind of stuff.

Sarah: 32:47

Yeah, if provided like this, I think, as I said, it's like it's been really the routine has given us like a framework around coming together. That now it's it's so much more practical, I think, than we've ever done before. And there was this transition point, realizing that we have these values as a family and as a parenting team. But a lot of the time, especially when we're going through that really hard time initially, that our daily actions weren't aligning with that. And we were seeing some confronting things come up where I was like, intellectually, I have understood everything that I've heard on the podcast that I've read in all these parenting books. And I wasn't able to, I was still having such a difficult time. Like, and I wasn't showing up with the kids how I wanted to. And I think it was just it's been hearing other parents talk about that, especially in their membership in ACTion group that they're saying we're still here. But so we're showing up in and with other girls, or other members of our group who have been in there for like, you know, two years. And something I still find this hard and that's been that's where I've been able to access self-compassion, which I've never been able to, really before, when they say to me, yeah, that's, that's really hard. And this last week was still really hard. And I need to go back and look at this. That's probably that's been such a healing thing for me to hear them say that.

Jen Lumanlan: 34:23

Yeah, the community aspect is so important. And the other thing I'm thinking about is, I think it's a much more common dynamic among parents for a female oriented partner to be the one who's doing all this research and for the male oriented partner to be the one who's sort of putting the kibosh on everything. And definitely you're you're kind of showing up a little bit differently here, right? There are many parents who are like, yeah, I wish my partner would get on a call and, and we were talking about parenting together. And that's never going to happen. And so I'm wondering if either of you have any thoughts on what to say to particularly a female oriented parent, but really any parent whose spouse is just like, "You know what, I just don't think it's worth the money. I don't think it's worth the time. I don't think this is worth doing." What would you say to that parent?

Declan: 35:03

Oh, it's really hard. We were thinking about this actually.

Sarah: 35:07

And we were talking about how it's like, it does often, like you say, the female oriented partner is often the one who's trying to, like, sell these ideas, and you're trying to come and I've had experiences of that. Yeah, like you're trying to come with your spiel and your research and your evidence, and do the absolute best job you can have like selling something convincing the other person.

Declan: 35:31

I think, ultimately, that's, there's an unfairness to that, it's important to kind of acknowledge it's sad that, you know, you have to try and like, get evidence up and ready to go and try and convince the other person.

Sarah: 35:43

And I think Declan, then you sort of said that it's, it isn't like kind of about moms doing more is about like the,

Declan: 35:49

It's really about the partner, the person who's like, reluctant or resistant is actually them doing some work. It's not about, oh, it's finding the right combination of things to say, or the female orientated partner doing things differently because that has, I guess, is like, the patriarchy kind of thing in action. So it's hard, like, I don't like this things that they could do, but I don't know whether it's that's to say, tell them.

Sarah: 36:18

And I guess when I asked if I might, oh, kind of like, what would you say? The one thing that you sort of said, if it was you in that position? You said you would ask questions. Yeah.

Declan: 36:27

How was like talking to another another Dad, let's say? And they had concerns yeah, I would be curious and why are you so worried about this, in that role, that I have a different dynamic with that person so what would come up would be different than what they feel comfortable, kind of, Like they wouldn't obviously be as comfortable to disagree in some cases. So I think, the way that I, I was thinking about this in terms of the parenting as a team thing as like the core. And I think one of the things is, is that idea that both parents performances, like separate, that's probably like a really, maybe useful kind of avenue for people to talk to their partner about right is that it's not, I'm apparently hearing your apparent over there. And if you're having a hard time, well, that's your business, and you need to sort it out because that's not how it is like you're parenting together. And I think that's probably the avenue that I would just do could go down. And I think like a sports analogy here is pretty perfect. If you're on a team, and one of your, like, one of your teammates isn't performing well, if they get injured, you don't just be like, well, that's your problem. I'm not helping you anymore.

Sarah: 37:33

Why do you let those go go to multiple sports analogies?

Declan: 37:38

So you wouldn't do that. That's not like a natural sport. And if your teammate came and said, "Why didn't you help me teammate," and so I would say injury is like their problem, they should just try harder and do better, and to sort it out for themselves. So you know, as a team, you support each other, you might go over and cover that person's position rather injured or to say they're struggling with something you like, give them ideas about what they could do. Or if they're in their head about something, you know, psychologically, they're in their head and during a game or something, he would go over and be like, come on, it's right, you can do this, let's work through this together, you know, be very teamwork. And so I think that kind of approach in parenting may help, that kind of framework might help some people have those discussions, because I think that's probably the key thing is you can't separate people's issues out, I think that's been a difference for us is when we go with chapter issues in together and we're gonna work on them together that's kind of when things really start to turn around for us.

Jen Lumanlan: 38:29

Yeah, and also saying this in the framework of your values has been so important to you, right? Do you think that can help a lot of parents to say, "Okay, well, if we have these values, and these things are really important to us, why are we doing these things? Yeah, it because if they're not aligned, so maybe bringing it back to a framework of values as well could be helpful. And I definitely think your idea about getting curious, like, if we haven't had that conversation about what are our values to really understand what our partner's values and then okay, well, if that's important to us, why are we doing this?

Sarah: 38:58

I think in those conversations around anything that's important, in a couple in a partnership, when we're having those conversations about parenting about money, like whatever it is, making those really difficult decisions, your relationship patterns show up, however, they are going to show up. So whatever patterns you bring to that will show up in those conversations. So if you are in that dynamic where the other parent feels criticized, because they have had those micro hurts or feelings of non-competence, when like you're dissing them about how they impact the nappy bag, you know, that shows up later, and I think creates a dynamic where we've been in before where the other person feels like they have to defend or feels like that. You're saying, we're not doing good, like we're not doing well. And the mindset obviously, of me and perhaps people who identify like how I do in these situations is like, "I just want us to do better and and I want to figure it out because I need help." But if you're that other parent who is more easygoing, then you can sort of show up just like, "I think we're fine. Let's just calm down."

Jen Lumanlan: 40:16

Yeah, which wasn't necessarily working so well. So what's different now? Right. I mean, Sarah, you mentioned a little self-compassion that wasn't there before. What else is different now?

Sarah: 40:25

The biggest thing that we've noticed is it's not that things aren't less chaotic.

Declan: 40:38

Kids still have really big feelings, although, so I like oldest in our middle child, they play great sometimes. But that's still a lot. I think it's how we communicate and how we work through those difficult moments is what's changed and what's going a lot smoother.

Sarah: 40:55

And we've noticed over the last year since more showing up together and during this work, it's been the shift in our relationship and how we navigate our conflict that has been the we've seen the biggest changes, like things that we haven't able been able to figure out over 15 years, like we were stuck in some certain patterns. And I'm just thinking of a specific coaching call that we have with you, Jen, that was really the turning point. You said something so simple, into speaking into a pattern that we were just playing out repetitively.

Jen Lumanlan: 41:30

You know what that was?

Sarah: 41:33

So our pattern and pattern for us is that, I guess,

Declan: 41:38

Sarah wants to kind of over talk about when we have difficult moments, and I guess tend towards that just going away, having spaced coming back together, when we're feeling a bit calmer, as well as kind of often in those moments, if Sarah's feeling really upset, I don't feel held emotionally. And so I think the thing is you said to do is just to rather than get into it, just acknowledge that we're having a really hard time. And that maybe we need to either talk right now, or we can go and talk about later. But we're just having a really hard time and just really acknowledge what's kind of happening in this situation.

Sarah: 42:15

And I think it was the example like in the coaching call, it was a bit of a funny one. And it was sort of like an example of just like a dynamic shows up for us that, again, those little micro habits are things that can be perceived as criticism, which I never mean, but when I'm in that efficient, go parenting mode, trying to get order, like in the chaos that I can slip into like and that's how you pack a nappy bag. And I think that specific situation that we were talking about with you definitely been chosen to make really elaborate dinner like cottage pie that you know, required a lot of bypassing and chopping, and there were these parts of of her leftover dinner that could have been made really easy in the chaos. And I sort of just snapped and been like, why are you doing that, leading to the rupture in my career. And in those situations, when I can see that, that's what I've done that I've been critical. I'm the hurt has sort of shown up. Yeah, I launch straight into that dynamic of us of being like, let's get into it, let's talk about all of the feelings, I want to know really talking about it. And definitely always said during those times, like you're not holding space for me, like my, I don't feel that my feelings are important. And I just could not understand. Because during those moments, I was beside myself, like so just dysregulated and really, and obviously now I can see, like straight back to my childhood of those moments where I was feeling disconnected from my mom, and how that anxious attachment style really shows up that I would do a say whatever I could to reestablish connection with him. So he's been had that feeling of being hurt in the shutdown, which again, bit of family origin stuff showing up for us, and him needing some time and space to just feel his feelings. And I want things to be better straight away. I want to reestablish connection with him. And knowing that he's there with me, and I haven't like, you know, lost him and like, again, any of that negative feelings so hard for me to hold. So I was straight into that and wanting it to be better straightaway. And I think what you just said was, yeah, like so but have you just not talked about it? Have you just sort of said, "Oh, we're having a really hard time. Like let's come back to this." That is something that we have never done. That we had never done. We had done every other possible thing. But it's when you sort of said that. In that moment. I was showing up as that little girl who was hurt and desperate for connection, then when I was able to understand what definite was actually saying that, yeah, a little hurt little girl, someone who's feeling that can't hold space can't truly reflect how that must have felt to have you're just to be criticized and have your feelings hurt. And that's the first time that I was able to see what he was saying. Because I think previously, I just been hearing that it's like, you don't care. And I was like, how can you possibly think that that's the case, I care so much about how you feel, and wanting to reestablish connection with you. But that's something that I just missed.

Declan: 45:44

And I think this is the other thing about the membership is that we've had this conversation a lot, but because we're always emotional while we're having it, we never really be able to kind of move through it. When you're in all the stuff in the membership, we've been usually calm or when in those days, easier to see where your parents might be playing out and talk through what solutions there are how the other person filled without. Yeah, holding any kind of hurts or, you know, having a position that you're trying to argue from so yeah, the other thing that's that's helped is that we've been able to talk through our stuff every Tuesday night, every Tuesday or like outside of that. But we tend to we have more times now where we're doing that, like can't like rather than when we're in the middle of it.

Jen Lumanlan: 46:29

Yeah. And that might that absolutely does make a huge difference, isn't it? So what's life like, now, I mean, obviously, you're still renovating, you're still working, you're still have three young kids. But what's different now versus what you think the past you might have been on if you hadn't taken a step a year ago?

Sarah: 46:45

Well, yeah, I like I said, I think the patterns, I just wouldn't have been able to break that pattern, because that I just didn't see how it was all interlinked, from that my mom's trauma to how I was parented to our relationship dynamics. And both of our childhoods have that family or origin, things happening with different family didn't talk about things my family over, talked about things. And it was just like putting all of those pieces together within this structure. So yeah, so the main thing, obviously, the values, that was a turning point for us, because we've always been value oriented. But it was the Parenting Membership, like that's the first module is about us, and it was that realization that the way that we were living our daily lives, and how we're showing up with the kids didn't align for that, like this is how we wanted to parent and intellectually, that was very easy for us to understand. There was no issues there with what we thought about all of these different things. But then we were still showing up in a way that didn't fit that.

Declan: 47:57

And that definitely would still probably be happening. Yeah, we're having internal conflict, external conflict about like our values, not aligning with our actions, I think we would say, and I will probably be arguing more and like less productively. And I know like, for me, personally, I know, I would probably still be playing out a lot of my family of origin things around, move around quietly, and make sure things get cleaned or smoothed out a little bit. So I think that kind of thing would definitely recommend noticing, like, I've noticed a lot, a lot of the work we put in around the membership have focused on the kids, their specific stuff that we're working through, has been huge jumps for that. So our like our oldest he would often when he was starting something new, he'd like to stay back, he would feel a bit unsure about jumping into stuff. And through like the stuff and the podcast and the membership, we've learned a lot about how we've have a plan for how to we've been approaching that. Yeah, he's like much more confident. Now he just kind of can come on to things and just participate fairly, pretty much straightaway now in a lot of cases. And so like, it's also a little things like that, right? Whereas if I think about what if you hadn't done.

Sarah: 49:14

We wouldn't have had those productive conversations each week about how we're going to handle soccer training this week within our action step, because this is what's happening for me in those situations. And this is how I've seen you handle it. And we're just more we make plans every week that are like the actual practical things of how we show up with the kids. And we're doing that within this chaotic time. And that's that's been hard because I think previously I would have been like wait until there's the perfect time and we can get our matching notebooks and really study this. So but just being in community you have got accountability that you're going to talk about it. So you have to so that just is so grounding for us and for me.

Declan: 50:08

So I think there's so many let's probably, here's the big thing, which is, is us. But there's also lots of little things that I think would be really different as well, in terms of what the kids are struggling with. Yeah. And how they like connecting with each other. I know it would be different. Not sure entirely how, but I know that they probably wouldn't be where it is today. So yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 50:31

And the other thing I noticed, and Sarah, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Sarah is I see as, you know, not a person who is never triggered or flooded anymore. But you're on generally a bit more of an even keel, right, it seems as though you're less sort of really flustered by things that used to really frustrate you. Is that right?

Sarah: 50:50

Yeah I think when we're thinking about having this conversation with you, and thinking about, okay, like, what's the specific example of when, you know, things have been different. And are things different? No, I'm still doing things, you know, I still get this wrong and this wrong and this wrong. But then I was thinking about that morning, that just literally just happened and Declan had had a really late night and was feeling tired coming into the morning chaos. And, you know, the baby's crying, because he's hangry from as soon as he wakes up, and aloes, just scootering inside and blunting himself from the scooter onto the couch. And Odette starts to have really big feelings because Declan had put the tomato sauce on top of her eggs, rather than an on someone gotten on the plate. And it was just sauces just supposed to be on the eggs. melting down. And I just would, I just picked her up. And I was carrying her around as I was getting ready for work, making my coffee, and was making jokes with her saying, like, I really just want to like just slow silly things like saying, I'm going to put you up in my bag, and we'll be able to take you to work. And she was starting to laugh, and we had that connection. And then it wasn't until those moments that we reflected on something, I realized that I wouldn't have been able to do that. Like, as I was getting ready for work, and in that zone with my mental to do list, and if everybody the chaos had been happening, and she'd started melting down, just been like, I have to go I have to be here and on time eight, I've got to go. But I yeah, I was running, I ran 10 minutes late for work, and it was fine. And it just had a completely different feel, I felt really different, like in that situation that was able to show up differently. And it's not that every time. But I was sort of like, "Is this the start of a non-cognitive shift?" Maybe. Like the sunlight, so like shine, the Halo.

Jen Lumanlan: 52:57

You got to pay extra for that. And that's an added benefit that comes extra. Thank you so much for being here, both of you. It's been such an honor to to walk this journey with you and see the ways that you've worked together to really embody the things that have always been important to you all along, right. And to really bring that alignment with your values and the ways you're actually showing up with your kids every day as imperfectly as we all do. Because we're all human, we're gonna mess things up. But to see you when to make that transformation has really been a real privilege for me. So thank you so much for being here and sharing your story.

Sarah: 53:33

Yeah, and we would just like to thank you so much, because I think that, as I said, we wouldn't have been able to turn some of these corners without some of that guidance specifically from you. And that and definitely that I think that coaching call was such an impactful moment for us, really. Yeah, we just want to thank you for like all of the work that you do, and how you show up in all these different spaces.

Jen Lumanlan: 54:00

Thank you so much.

Jessica: 54:04

Hi, this is Jessica from Verlies Panama. I'm a Your Parenting Mojo fan and I hope you enjoy this show as much as I do. If you found this episode, especially enlightening are useful, you can also donate to help Jen produce more content like this and also save us from those interminable mattress ads, then you can do that and also subscribe in the link that Jen just mentioned. And don't forget to head to YourParentingMojo.com to record your own message for the show.