225: How to stop shaming your child

Hi, I'm Emma, and I'm listening from the UK. We all want our children to lead fulfilled lives, but we're surrounded by conflicting information and clickbait headlines that leave us wondering what to do as parents. The Your Parenting Mojo podcast distills scientific research on parenting and child development into tools parents can actually use every day in their real lives with their real children. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a free infographic on the 13 Reasons your child isn't listening to you (And what to do about each one), just head on over to YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe, and pretty soon you're going to get tired of hearing my voice read this intro, so come and record one yourself at YourParentingMojo.com/RecordTheIntro.

Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. And today we are here with a special guest from the other side of the world. Jody, welcome. It's really good to be here with you.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

So tell us a bit about who you are. Where are you on the other side of the world?

I live in Perth, Western Australia, with my wife and four kids. Got two boys, seven and five years old, and twin girls who are just turned three.

Oof, that's a lot. So you are not super busy then, is that right?

Oh, absolutely, we're not super busy at all. My wife and I are working full time, and the kids go to school and those sort of daycares.

Okay, okay, cool. So yes, and of course, I'm joking, because I know that you are very, very busy, and you joined the Parenting Membership, actually nine months or so ago, and you had a motto. In our community, there's a little space where you can put a motto underneath your name. And when you join the membership, your motto was: Always tired. And then it changed, didn't it? What is it now?

It's it actually changed because people are making fun of me. It is actively seeking rest. Yes, still always tired, just different degrees of tired. It's just now I have to actively try and get rest whenever I can.

Yeah, and why is, why is rest so important to you?

Um, first, we've got four kids, and we didn't have a lot of sleep. Um, well, uninterrupted, continuous sleep for the longest time, and we still have to work, and we still come back home, and the kids are just relentless with their needs, and we didn't know how to set up boundaries at the time, and, yeah, we just gave and gave and gave, and we just felt always tired that it doesn't end. And yeah. So so right now, like seeking rest is the priority for us.

Yep, it's a radical act, for sure. Yeah. And so I am curious about how the ways that you were parented, as you know, when you were a child, intersect with the ways that you interact with your children. Now, can you tell us a little bit about what childhood was like for you?

I am an only child. My My dad was in the military, my mom was a nurse, and it was very discipline-oriented, very you do what you are told, and you do it now, and there was a lot of focus on academic excellence, so you study like, don't, don't play, don't, don't mess around, follow the rules, just don't rock the boat, keep in your lane. So that that was, that was how I was, like growing up, and I know that I was quite mischievous, and I was spanked a lot and scolded when I didn't live up to my parents' expectation. And yeah, did I answer the question?

Yeah, yeah. And just, just trying to get a little bit of a sense for sort of the the kind of environment that you grew up in. But it seems as though you sort of, you know, you your parents obviously were doing the absolute best they could with the tools that they had. Yeah, and also that created a challenging environment for you, and it seemed as though you didn't want to replicate that 100% with your own kids. Is that right?

Oh yes, definitely, yes. Can I just go back and say that yeah, my I recognized that my parents were doing the very best that they could at the time, and even though it was hard for me growing up, I recognized that they gave a lot of themselves, they had a lot of they sacrificed a lot of themselves, a lot of the time, a lot of their resources for me to get to where I am today. And I really appreciate that. However, that being said, there was also a lot of trauma involved, and I saw myself passing what acting in the way my parents did when I was growing up. For example, when I think, when my oldest was about five, I started to yell a lot more, a shout. Hit? Well, I try not to hit as much as my parents did, so I put them in timeout more than hit, but still that that is a traumatic thing for a five year old to be left alone when they're already dysregulated, and I know that now, so I saw that in myself, and I didn't want to keep doing that and listening to your podcast for about just over five years now, I saw that there was this mismatch between what I wanted to be and how I was actually parenting at the time.

Yeah, and so you join the Parenting Membership, and I guess I'm curious as to that process, right? Because we have Taming Your Triggers, we have the parenting membership. And the difference between the two is kind of, in the Parenting Membership, it's it's mostly about supporting your children, right, supporting their development and understanding where their big feelings are coming from. And in Taming Your Triggers, it's sort of similar tools, but we're turning it around, and we're looking at ourselves and where these big feelings are coming from in us, and the hurts that are often underneath those and so, so you went into the Parenting Membership, right, because you wanted your children's behavior to be different. Is that fair?

Yes, that was, that was, that was the intention. I came into the Parenting Membership I'm going like, yes, Jen will tell me what to do to get my kids to do what I wanted to do. She will do it in a respectful way. There'll be, there'll be no yelling involved, and then I'll be perfectly fine. You know, everything, everything will be nice and smooth.

Oh gosh. Now I'm disappointed you listened to the podcast for five years and you thought that's what I was going to tell you to do.

Yeah,

I'm doing something wrong here.

Okay,

That was my takeaway anyway. That was my wishful thinking. And yeah, needing, my need for ease, was not being met, so I just wanted it to be easy. So let's, let's join the membership and we just do what Jen tells us to do, everything will be a lot easier.

Okay? And so what happened?

Well, everything is easier. Now it's just I didn't realize how much work hard to put into it.

Okay. So, so how did that process roll out? Right? So you were in the Parenting Membership for a while. What kind of changes happened there, and then at some point, you decided to join, Taming Your Triggers. So, so how did that all roll out?

Okay? So the tools I learned from the Parenting Membership were great, and I saw that working. And in times when there was no dysregulation, dysregulation in the children, dysregulation in ourselves, and that seemed fine, and even had tools to help the children regulate themselves, to help them to cope whole whole space for their big feelings and and then find a way forward. Only problem was when we are triggered, when we are dysregulated, all those tools are just lost, like, we can't access them in our brains at the time, and we just go back to auto, autopilot parenting, you know, when how we use how our parents used to parent us, so it's more yelling and and shaming. Like, why would you do that like you know, and then on some occasions, there will be hitting or smacking, which I'm not proud of at the end of the day, and but at the time, I just really could not control myself. It's scary that that you want to change, and then you just go through the motions, and then you stop, and you go, Oh, really sorry, I shouldn't have done that. And then we try and repair afterwards. Yeah, that was the reasoning of me taking Taming Your Triggers after realizing that I needed it from joining the Parenting Membership.

Okay, and so once you started Taming Your Triggers, there was, I remember you posted in the community. They got fairly early on in the course, and you had what you call a sorta win when you were driving home from school with your kids. Can you tell us about what happened in that?

Oh, yeah, sure, I've got so I had the at the time, I had the there was six and six and four, no seven and five. Yeah, seven, five in the backseat after school. They're all tired. I'm tired. They were having an argument in the car. And. And one of them starts to hit, and that triggered me. I think that the hitting and then the crying that I think was the crying that triggered me, like seeing someone, a child, get hurt, and I was driving at the time, so I I couldn't do anything other than shout or look back and, well, I can even look back, you know, just, it's just looking in the rear wheel mirror and just telling them to stop, but they're not stopping. So I'm triggered. I have to pull over into like a parking lot so I can get out of the car, and my immediate reaction is to hurt back. You see someone get hurt, so you know this is what it feels like. So you get smacked, so you know what it feels like, so you won't do it to someone else. But in that time where I actually pulled over to stop, I took a moment that gave me a moment to pause, and when I finally stopped and got out the car, I got the seven year old out, I put him up, I put I separated them physically, and then I said, I'm not leaving you. I'm just want you to stay here where it's safe. You know, we're in the car park, but I just still need you to be safe. And I'm not leaving you. I'm not leaving you, I'm just going to check that your brother's fine, and then we can talk about this. So that was my sort of win the pause. It was not an intentional pause on my part. It was a physical pause that I had because of safety and stuff. I had to pull the car over, and that created that pause, and that sort of let me choose a different outcome than what I would have normally done if I didn't have that pause.

Yeah, that was really cool, right? Because then you can start to see how the pause helps and starts to institute it. And I know you got some wristbands that you thought were going to help you with that did, oh, you're wearing one. Okay. What does it say on it?

Can you see it?

Yes, it says, Take a breath. So you got some silicone wristbands and wrote on them, didn't you, in the absence of me having a store where you could buy some from me?

Yeah, this was actually something that you mentioned, well adapted from something you mentioned about the hairband, to move it from from one hand to the other when you're feeling triggered, and that will sort of create that odds, but I have never used it in that way.

So how do you use it?

I well this, it says, Take a breath on it. So it sort of reminds me before I get triggered. So if I feel myself getting tensed up. You know, sometimes I will notice it, not always, but sometimes I would notice it and go, Okay, take a breath. Or after I've been triggered, and go like, Oh, I was supposed to take a breath. Yeah, we'll try again next time. Yeah.

Okay, cool. So, so you're still using them to create the pause, which was the intent, right? The switching of the wrist doesn't matter as much so. And so it seemed as though you started to be able to create the pause. It started to happen more regularly, right? And it seemed as though it happened first in situations that were less surprising, and then maybe you were able to carry that through into situations where things were surprising and you weren't expecting them. Is that the am I pulling that out correctly from from the post that you shared?

Yeah, definitely. Okay. So one example is if I know something is coming, if, if I've got the boys in the bath, like in the bath upstairs, and I hear them playing loudly, I sort of know that there is going to be water all over the floor in the bathroom. I'm trying to use non-judgmental words here. Well done. So I when I am walking up the stairs and I'm hearing this laughter in the bathroom, I sort of go, Okay, I know what's coming. There's going to be one on the floor. I am going to try and not be as angry. Well, I'm not sure that's right. I'm still going to be angry, and I want to be able to model that I'm angry, but also be able to sort of show them when they're in the bathroom. I'm going to take a deep breath. I'm angry right now. There's water on the floor, and that doesn't meet my need for ease. And yeah, so I meet you guys. Well, that's not right.

I still coming, right? So what would you say?

I see your need for play. I see a need for connection. I have a need for calm and ease. I don't want to be the one that cleans up load the water. Can we find a way to work together to meet both our needs so you guys can still play, but let's not get water on the floor. Would that can you find a way? Can you guys find a way to do that? And if you can, that's great. We'll do that. If not, then let's get out of the bath.

And did they come up with a way?

Oh, no, they stayed in there and then they actually helped clean up afterwards, which is great, yeah.

And that's the other way of meeting your need for ease, right, is either the water stays in the bath or the water gets on the floor and they help clear it up. So yeah. So your need is met either way, and when we can find that cognitive flexibility to be able to think to ourselves, okay, this, this strategy actually is not one I would have picked. It's not one I even would have thought of, but it can actually meet my need for ease, and so I can say yes to this. So yeah, that's really cool. So so that's in a situation where you have a bit of time to think, right, that that journey up the stairs gives you a bit of time to think. What kind of shifts have you seen, where more surprising things happen?

Well, the surprising thing would be, let's say the five year old throws a hard toy at the seven year old. You don't see that coming. And a lot of times you just hear the crying or shouting or something, and you turn and you react to it straight away. And it's, it's like, why would you do that? And, I mean, you come in and you see what, what has happened? Obviously, someone has thrown a toy. Someone is crying. Is that? Why would you do that? What's happened? Like, don't do that. Stop throwing toys around. That's the initial reaction. And it is so hard to actually take a moment and stop and say, Okay, what are you feeling right now? What are you trying to do? I just instinctively, you know, you try and fix the situation, but it's hard to do that if you are not regulated. And I can't say that. I actually get it all the time. In fact, I would say about 70% of the times I still get triggered. And like, why would you do that? Like, go back, go into sort of shaming mode, or you hurt someone else, so I'm going to hurt you more. But I think, like, the 30% of the time I'm able to go like, I'm able to model as well. So it's like, deep breath, like, let's let's stop, take a moment, pause and and then let's go into feelings. Let's go into needs. Let's, let's find a way to meet everyone's needs. Needs here, yeah, and it's hard because there's so many people involved, not just one.

Opportunities to practice.

I know.

So for parents who are listening to this that I'm wondering, they're probably got to be thinking, you talk about needs with your kids like this. You identify your need for ease, you identify their needs for connection and for play. Do you actually use that language with them?

I maybe not say, do connection, but I say, Do you want to play with your brother? Is that what you want? Do you want to play with me? Or do you, do you feel tired right now? Do you? Do you feel like you need to have a nap or sit down? Or do you feel like you need to move around? I don't use specifically those words from the needs list, maybe I find something and adapt it slightly to so they have a better understanding of what I'm trying to say. The needs list can be a bit too much for them sometimes. Yeah,

Yeah. So it's what I'm hearing you saying is you're kind of translating from the needs list to them, and you're also hearing what they're saying, and you're translating this back to their need. Because when you understand their need, then all of the potential options to meet that need, become apparent, right?

Yes, translating doesn't meet my need for ease, but later on, when they get older, I'm hoping they're able to do it themselves. Understand when you can do it for himself. So, so that's good. So that's, that's the idea that the starting blocks, the scaffolding, and it doesn't meet my need for ease right now, but later on, when it all clicks together, that's when the you realize that it's all worthwhile. And you're like, you take a breath and go like, yeah, next crisis.

And also, I think the crises won't be as cris-easy, right? Because you'll actually be able to understand what each other's needs are in that crisis, which inherently, I think, makes the crisis easier. But I'm curious about this, this idea of, okay, is it harder now? Because absolutely, learning a new skill is not easy. I 100% get that. And yet, also, you know, I'm seeing some of the things that you posted. I'm thinking particularly of kind of the three way problem solving win that you had, where it seemed as though, I mean, that kind of eased up a situation that created some ease, it seemed to me from reading it. Can you, can you tell us what happened and and just maybe reflect on whether that created any ease for for any of the people involved in that situation?

Okay, so the three way, the one I posted, the three way problem solving thing, was between my five year old myself and my wife at the time. So the picture is the morning rush off to school. My five year was feeling a need for safety on comfort, so he smuggled four of his bedtime toys under his school uniform into the car. He managed to get out the door through the customs and no one spotted him, and he put them all over the car. And my wife sees this, and she is furious. She is triggered. These are his bedtime toys. They don't go in the car. They are not especially not on the floor, on the seat. They're going to get dirty. They're going to get in his go into his bed. We don't want that. And I think she's also concerned for his need for comfort, because at night, if he doesn't have his toys, then he's going to have a hard time going to bed for me.

And then her need for ease is not met right down the line where, because they're in the wash, she's doing the laundry, and also she's dealing with the kid who doesn't want to go to bed because his stuff is in the laundry. Yes, yeah. I can imagine her seeing all of that playing out, no, just a few hours into the future.

Yes, and this, and this was in the morning already, and so my need for calm was not being met, and I was feeling very overwhelmed, very flooded, I think, because of my past trauma with yelling and stuff I feel, I feel scared when when someone displays anger, even if it's not towards me, and I wanted to see if there was a way that meets everyone's needs here. So I first, I turned to my wife and go, like, looks like we're having a hard time. Do you want to take a breath? And immediately she turns around and she says, like, don't talk to me like a child. Oh, I did not see that coming, and I managed to carve out a response. So my response was, I see that you're feeling angry. I know you didn't have a good sleep last night. I am feeling scared from my past trauma with stuff, with anger, and my scripts, my starting scripts, are the only way that I can help get through this situation right now. Would that is this? Is this okay for you? And goosebumps that sort of turn, yeah, that sort of turned it around so, so she she immediately recognized what was happening, and that if I was not trying to be condescending, I was trying to be helpful, and that turned it around for her. So she was more willing to listen. And eventually, we managed to find a strategy that works for everyone, which is basically, all right, five year old gets one toy to take to school, whereas, well, I'll take the rest and we'll wash it now and hang out to dry ready for bedtime. And, yeah, so that from problem solve three ways.

Yeah, that was impressive. And so, so what was it like to go through that and to come out of it and be like, I did it?

Yes, exactly as I did it, yeah, yeah. I was amazed that I was able to actually say those things in the heat of the moment, because usually for me, I will just shut down. I'll just be quiet and go like, Yeah, let's just do what you want to do. And, yeah, we've got a five year old crying in the back. That's fine. Just leave him, you know, he'll be fine. Yeah, yeah, that's it. That felt amazing. And, yeah. And I think everyone came out of that situation feeling a little bit better than that it would have been, yeah.

So there is a little bit more ease now in some situation. And I remember when you shared the story in the community, and it was just like everybody's heart, I think, cracked open when, we heard you say, you know when, when we read you saying, you know, I'm feeling scared right now, and I want to use my scripts, because it's helpful to me at the moment. Is that okay with you? And it's like, Who wouldn't want to come towards somebody who shared something like that, right? It completely diffuses the whole, you know, why are you speaking to me like a child? It was, it was such a beautiful, beautiful story. Thanks so much for sharing that one. So I also want to address sort of, you know, an interesting elephant in the room here, which is, as far as I can tell, you're male identifying. You are the primary parent involved in the Parenting Membership, right? I haven't met your wife. She hasn't been to any of the calls, which is totally fine. There's never a requirement that both parents join. We always welcome both parents to join. And so why are you here? What is it? Why is this important for you to do this work, to join the Parenting Membership and then to work on Taming Your Triggers?

I joined the membership actually because of listening to you, Jen, just that the whole listening to the podcast, to research-based parenting strategies, which was important to me is still important to me. I want our kids to have the best outcomes anyone would. And at the same time, I want something that's not Oh no someone said this, someone said that. I needed something that was based in research that, because that was my, my sort of upbringing, as well, like more research-based, scientific sort of methodology, and from from your podcast came the membership. And that seemed like the next logical step for me. Bear in mind, I did join the membership, like a few years ago, and we had twins, so I had no time to actually go into it and at the time, but now that, now that the twins are older, I'm able to sort of commit that time to the membership. Now my wife is running around with four kids. She doesn't have time for this. I'm sure she would be here if she could, but she has no bandwidth left. So I'm doing this, and I'm sort of relaying information to her in sort of like, you know, plays of the week sort of thing. You know, this this is a strategy I think we might use. What do you think like or I will talk about it. Yeah, so it's, it is difficult for me to come in and tell her how to parent, and I'm not telling her how to parent. I'm sort of saying, This is what I heard. I think this, what do you think? Can we find a way to to work together? Because this was, this was based on research, but we also have our family, and this might not work in our family, so let's find a way. Like, what can, what can we do here? Have a discussion basically. Yeah, as as we pass by each other in the corridor, you know, because we're getting laundry and lunches.

Yes, yeah. And I'm trying to think of a delicate way of asking this for because, because I know men do listen to the podcast, right? And I've had women say to me, you know, your podcast is the only one my husband will listen to, because it's research-based. And yet, I know there are so many women listening to this show who at their wits end, who are trying to do all of this stuff by themselves, who are, you know, in a relationship with somebody who doesn't take on that role that you have taken on to be the person who primarily engages with this? And I'm thinking right now that there's probably a whole lot of women out there listening to this, thinking, where's Jody? Where's my Jody? And part of this, I think, is our culture really devalues caregiving. And so there's sort of this, you know, there's this dynamic where it's kind of not the man's job to engage in caregiving, because that's the women's job. And women's, you know, women's work is devalued. And so I guess I'm, I'm just curious as to whether you have any thoughts on, like, why is this your job? What makes this your job?

I'm a parent. This, this, this isn't a job. This is, this is me, um, I am a parent. My it's not my job is, is being a parent. It's like, No, I am a parent. You know, my job is at the office, but I am a parent. It's part of who I am. I guess. I think we can't look at it like a job. I think that's, that's the downfall, right there. We start looking at as a job. Then it becomes, you know, a job would imply that there's some sort of reward or transactional value in there, where it where it isn't. This is, this is who I am. This is, yeah, this, I think probably before the Parenting Membership, I would say that, yeah, this is a hard job. But right now I've come to realize that, you know, this is who I am. This is I am a father to my kids. This is not a job. And I'm enjoying actually enjoying myself more with the kids now that then, before we started. I enjoy spending time with them, and while also getting my needs met. Like, for example, yesterday I was, I was just on, I just sat down on the couch my time to rest, and straight away, they come up to me, let's play a board game. Okay, we can play a board game as long as I don't have to move from this couch. So if you want to bring the board game over here on the floor, I will direct with where to move on the board. And as long as I sit on the couch and rest, we can play. And they were happy to do that. So that was great.

Yeah, so you met their need for connection and fun then play, and your need for rest and ease, right? Yes, yeah, yeah, that's that's beautiful.

So so it's not a job, it's just part of who I am and part of being a family.

Yeah, yeah, part of being human. And so we were getting more and more men joining in the Parenting Membership, joining Taming of Your Triggers, which I absolutely love, because I truly see this as as our lives as well, right? That this is, this is part of our experience as parents and and, yeah, sometimes you're one of relatively few, right? And so I know you had an AccountaBuddy in Taming Your Triggers, and it was a woman. And I'm just curious as to what that relationship was like for you. What was the AccountaBuddy process like?

It was good. My AccountaBuddy, she's over in Sydney, or just the other side of Australia. So there are some some connections there in terms of shared experiences, of what school was like, certain terms and stuff. So it was a bit weird at the start, because you're meeting completely different person, effectively a stranger, with a shared connection of the workshop and so able, so being able to talk to someone else about your triggers, someone to hold space for you and for you to hold space for them, for you to share stuff and not be judged, might be different from from talking to your spouse or friends, you know. It's a sense of relief, I guess, and being being seen someone seeing you for who you are, and you're not afraid to show them the uglier side to yourself and not feel like you're going to be judged for it. So, so if I say, Oh, I hit my kids, and she won't be like, Oh, you shouldn't hit your kids. And it's like, we we get that. We've all, we've all been there, and it was great. And it's a big relief which people talk to someone like that. And yeah, near the end of it, we were pretty chatty the whole time, and we would just run out of time as oh my god, it's like hour, more than an hour, and gotta go. Zoom Kicked us off. Yeah. So it was, it was good. Definitely.

There's also, I think, a bit of relief that you know you're never going to run into this person at the grocery store, right? This person has nothing invested in you. And I think that's when we have couples join the workshop. We encourage them to get their own AccountaBuddies, because if you try and beat each other's as AccountaBuddy. You've just got so much wrapped up in, you know, wanting each other to do a certain thing, to turn out a certain way that it doesn't, it doesn't work very well. And, and I think there's sort of this sense of relief of knowing, yeah, this person's out there, they're going to hold space for me today because I'm having a hard day, and I'm going to do it for them tomorrow. And also, I know I'm never going to run it in my regular life, so I can tell them that all this terrible stuff is happening that I wish wasn't happening, and to know I won't be judged and it's not going to come back and bite me in the butt.

No, definitely, I think I will have no problems if I ran into her in the supermarket, or if she was visiting her four weeks, or if I was over in Sydney, I'll have no problems meeting them face to face. You'll be like just good friends you haven't seen for a while. And the other side of some having someone else hold space for you is that later on, when you go to your partner and she or he doesn't hold space perfectly for you. That's okay, because you've been helped by someone else's health space for you. So you don't have that, you know, or you didn't say that, right? It's okay. I can let that go. And, yeah, because maybe she's having a hard time too, and I can hold space for her then, you know, yeah.

Yeah, that's lovely. And, and I think that the impression I got was your relationship with your parents also shifted a fair bit over the course of the workshop as well. Can you tell us about how some of that happened?

Okay, so when I joined Taming Your Triggers, I heard like past stories that you've told before about one participant that had some trauma with her mother, and she wanted to forgive her, and it wasn't until the Taming Your Triggers that she had this non-cognitive shift that allowed her to become forgiveness, to forgive her mother. I really wanted that I didn't get it. I really wanted that non-cognitive shift and to become the forgiveness, and that's what I was hoping for. I knew I couldn't force it, and I didn't quite get it, and it was only until near the end of the workshop where I managed to get that shift, quite by accident. And it wasn't that forgiveness that caused that shift, it was accepting my parents for who they were, so not necessarily forgiving, because I really tried to forgive them and I couldn't, and just accepting them for who they were, and just mourning the loss of the parents that of my expectations. Is that really shifted for me? And, yeah, I think it was. It was true one of the calls with another participant that sort of gave me that insight, I would say. And yeah.

Okay, so I'm going to push back a little bit and on the idea of, well, it was, it was an accident. It happened by chance, right? Because it didn't it happened because you put yourself in a place where you were really thinking about this, you were really working on it. You were trying to understand what your relationship with them could be like moving forward. You were hoping for this outcome. And in a way, you know, if we were to bring in Buddhist ideas, we could imagine you kind of grasping at this idea of forgiveness, right? That that it has to be forgiveness or I don't know what I'm going to do, and then this conversation with this other person just kind of cracked open another possibility for you that you hadn't seen before, right? It was like, forgiveness or nothing, and then all of a sudden it was like, oh, forgiveness or nothing, or acceptance. And that seemed to really kind of open up a possibility that that you were actually able to move towards.

Yeah, that definitely was what happened. And bear in mind, I've been listening to your podcast for a while, so everything was there. I think the only thing that was different is that now I'm actually actively doing, doing work on myself, actively thinking about it, actively discussing it with other people, writing it down, having a journal, which was different from just listening to the podcast, right? So I was listening to podcasts and nothing nothing's really changed. But we try to do stuff, but nothing's really changed internally. And in the membership in the workshop, we're doing more and more writing things down, being more conscious thinking about things, yeah. So it like I said before earlier, it's hard work, and then it paid off, yeah? So, so that was great.

Yeah. And very soon after that, you went to visit your parents, didn't you? And I know there was a little bit of anxiety going into that, and I'm curious about how the acceptance showed up for you in the conversations you were able to have with them, in the ways that you interacted while you were there?

Yeah, I think what we were afraid of going in was the toxic grandparenting, the basically, you know, the whole Oh, boys don't cry, you know, for the girls, like, Oh, you look so pretty, things like that, or finish your food, or you can't leave the table. Those sort of parenting styles which we grew up with. We were choosing not to do that anymore and able to accept them for who they are. So we went in going there is nothing that our parents can do that would harm our kids in a way that we can't correct it later on through conversation or through our own values and habits and nurturing. And once we were okay with not having the best parenting all the time, we could let that go and accept them for who they are, like they genuinely care for their their grandkids. And that's that's good enough, everything else we can correct later on, you know? We can tell them, Oh, this is how it was done in the past. We're choosing not to do that anymore. What do you think about that? You know? And that was great. It was so much better. And I didn't have that anxiety going in. Well, I had a little bit, but not as much as before, knowing that there was this, this, this backup plan, you know, with that, it's okay, yeah, just for them to be themselves and to be in a genuinely loving relationship with their grandkids, yeah.

And so, how did the trip go?

You know, I sort of missed part of the trip. I there was an issue with my passport documentations, and I missed, I missed one of the flights. The rest of the family went like my wife had to drag four kids. I know drags not the right word, but she survived before she survived before kids on the plane to another country, hauling all our luggage, I only had my backpack with me, so all hauling all our luggage to another country where I got my passport sorted out. And that was really intense for me. And I think at the time, while it was happening, I was reaching out to the community. I'm going like this is happening. I know it's not parenting related, but oh my god, I'm trying to take in all use all the tools that I learned from the Taming Your Triggers. I'm taking a breath, I'm grieving. I'm trying not to let it get to me. I'm labeling my feelings, feeling overwhelmed, feeling scared, feeling guilty, and all those things. And at the end of the day, my wife was really understanding, and she was really supportive. And she said, It's okay do what you need to do. I've got this, you know, if you want take this chance to rest, don't stress about it. I've got it. When you're done, we'll we'll see you in Malaysia, which was where we were going at the time. So, yeah, it was, it was hard, and I'm so grateful for the community that when I reached out, people responded almost immediately. And I saw that, and I felt that, you know, I felt supported, yeah.

I think that's a really cool feature of the community, both in the Parenting Membership and in Taming Your Triggers. We have this Need Help Now space and everybody has the notifications turned on for that. So when somebody posts in that, everybody gets some sort of email or app notification. And so, you know, very often, all the person wants this to be heard, right, to be seen, to say, you know, I see that you're struggling. Is there anything that we can do to help? Sometimes someone's willing to get on a call with you, if that's what, obviously that wasn't what in that moment, but but just to be seen in the struggle, and maybe to offer a thought, right, a suggestion, something you can try. And I also remember you saying, I think it might have been afterwards you mentioned that was it your one of your older two had done something in the airport, like pushed a suitcase or something that was about to topple over, and that, that would have been, you know, before that would have been explosion moment for you, right in the middle of the whole passport debuggle. And it wasn't, is that right?

Yeah, that's right. So I was actually trying to get through the ticketing people. So with all our passports and stuff, while on the call with immigration to try and work out my passport issues, all this was happening, and I just put my phone down for a moment because I was just flipping through documents, and I put it on top of the suitcase that was standing up upright, and my seven year old, just at the time, was just leaning on it, and it knocked it over. My phone went beyond like, the road barriers, and my instant reaction was just to raise my hand and go online. And I stopped, and I looked at him. I just looked at that worried look, or in his eyes, and, okay, take a breath. I think at the time, I couldn't model it. I couldn't model just being, you know, calming down. I said, Help me get my phone and that was it. So, yeah, but it was just that whole race. It was just a whole race and just look, stop and just look, and then choosing to do something different, which is great. A lot of times I'm not able to choose that the stop and go, let's find something else to do.

Yeah. And now you can not always right, because we're not perfect, but more of the time you're moving in that direction, yeah, yeah. And and so eventually you met up with your parents. And so what was it like coming in with this this acceptance, this newfound acceptance, knowing that there's still going to be all this stuff that you disagree with, right? How did it, how did the visit go?

Yeah, it was good. It was a lot more calm. It was it didn't go as badly as I thought it would have, because in our minds, we just have this. We have all these different scenarios played out as like, Oh, they're going to do that. Yeah? Because we're just drawing from our own recollection of how we were raised, and all of the bad parenting just comes in at once as I'm expecting this, this package, to just be delivered to our child, and not all of it happened. And yeah, so, like I said, just going in more calm just helps create that environment where, you know, we're not on our on our toes, and we're not so tense, we're able to just take it in, take a moment, be more regulated, and then that affects our relationship with with the grandparents, with the children. And yeah, because a lot of the times, you know, when we get stressed about the grandparents, we end up triggering at the children. So when once that relationship is sort of calm, then everyone's reactions is less intense.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And as we wrap up, I'm wondering if you've heard recent podcast episodes where we have an old practice that we're leaving people with. So there's three different options. There's a mild option, there's a media, medium option, and there's a spicy option. And I'm wondering if you have practices in mind that have been really helpful for you that might fit in each of those categories that you'd be willing to share.

So I think the mild one would be, let's say, like a five minute mindfulness practice. I think that's very simple to do. It's just five minutes of your time, maybe, maybe before going to bed, maybe when you wake up, or maybe, like during lunch, just five minutes of just checking your body, deep, breathing, just checking your body like how you're feeling and yeah, and just being calm, being calm for that five minutes, and not having any distractions, and maybe practice some gratitude for what you have in your life at the time. Yeah, okay. Medium will be something maybe identifying your needs, maybe during the day, if you can identify, like, maybe two or three of your needs at this time, and finding a way to meet those needs. I think that helps to widen our window of tolerance, so we don't get triggered as easily. And a spicy option this was, I think this is hard for me. What I'm going to suggest is to make a request from someone else to meet your need. It was really hard for me to do this one. I try and solve everything myself, but actually reaching out to someone. It could be a partner, it could be a child, it could be a stranger, just to reach out to them and make a request this, this is what I would like you to help me with. Or would you be willing to do this? And maybe not specifically say that this is meeting your need, but as long as you know it's helping to meet your need. I think just the act of asking someone else for help that was really hard, and I think if you can do that often, then you get used to it, and it's so much easier to ask for help when you need it.

Yeah, yeah. And that would you be willing to language is so important, I think, because it allows the the other person the option to think about this and say, Does this meet my need as well? Right? Do I have a need to contribute? Do I have a need to support this person? Is doing this request, is fulfilling this request going to block me from meeting any of my needs? And if the answer is, you know, yes to the former and no to the latter, then yes, I'm going to help you. And also to know, you know, the would you be willing to gives me kind of the assurance that the saying 'no' is an acceptable option and that you're not going to see that as well. Oh, yo, you're rejecting me, right? That this is not a rejection of you. It's just a the thing you're asking me to do does not meet my need right now, I may well be willing to help you with something else. So, yeah, so I love that phrasing of asking for for getting your needs met. Is there a need that you've asked for support with recently that has been met or has never been met, that is was interesting to you and illuminating for you, that you'd be willing to share with us.

I can't seem to think of an example right now. I think it's because when I make a request, I consider someone else's, the other party's needs as well. So and we, and I try to make a request that meets both needs, like my need and their needs. So a lot of times when I make that request, it doesn't come back negative. It usually then they're more like they're more willing to to fill that request, if, if that happens. So I can't think of a, yeah, I can't think of a example right now, so, yeah.

So, so the moral of the story is, consider the other person's needs and make a request, and chances are they're going to say yes.

Yes.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. Jody, it was such a pleasure to go through this with you and see all of this unfold in real time, and now to kind of go through with you again on this call and hear about all the details that I didn't know about right through, through just going through it through with you in the workshop. So thank you so much for being here with us and sharing your story with us.

Thank you for having me glad to be here.

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