206: How to find yourself as a parent

Jessica: 00:03

Do you get tired of hearing the same old intros to podcast episodes? Me too. Hi, I'm not Jen. I'm Jessica. And I'm in rural East Panama. Jen has just created a new way for listeners to record the introductions to podcast episodes, and I got to test it out. There's no other resource out there quite like Your Parenting Mojo, which doesn't just tell you about the latest scientific research on parenting and child development, but puts it in context for you as well. So you can decide whether and how to use this new information. If you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox, along with a free infographic on 13 Reasons your child isn't listening to you (And what to do about each one), sign up at YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe, and come over to our free Facebook group to continue the conversation about this episode. You can also thank Jen for this episode by donating to keep the podcast ad free by going to the page for this or any other episode on YourParentingMojo.com. If you'd like to start a conversation with someone about this episode, or know someone who would find it useful, please vote it to them. Over time, you're gonna get sick of hearing me read the center as well. So come and record one yourself. You can read from a script she's provided or have some real fun with it and write your own. Just go to YourParentingMojo.com and click Read the intro. I can't wait to hear yours.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:26

Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. I know that parenting can feel like a really lonely experience. Perhaps we're at home with a new baby the whole day who never wants to be put down. And then in the evening, we're racing around trying to do chores and connect with our preschooler and our partner as well. Or maybe we're at work all day, perhaps even doing work that we enjoy. And our child draaaaags out bedtime every night and we're about at the end of our rope with it. Or perhaps we're doubting ourselves and wondering if we're doing the right thing with all this respectful parenting stuff because it doesn't seem like our child is really respecting us, and we're feeling exhausted, and everyone around us is doubting us. If any of this sounds familiar, then we have a pretty awesome episode lined up for you today.

Jen Lumanlan: 02:11

So recently, I offered a group coaching call to the folks who are in the free Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. And we polled for a time when most people were available and a small group of folks showed up at that time and we had a good chat. I'd only met one of them once before; everybody else was completely new to me. I think several of them were feeling a bit nervous about how the session would go and what might come up and whether they would even get anything out of the call. I'm pretty sure that for most of them, it was the first time they had been on a group coaching call. And I know that a lot of people think it's going to be kind of like toddler swimming lessons where you got six kids in the pool for a 30 minute session. And each kid gets face time with the instructor for five minutes total across those 30 minutes. And the other 25 minutes they're hanging on to the side of the pool splashing each other in the face and goofing off. And I will say this is not a culturally universal experience--children in some cultures like the Guatemalan Maya learn primarily by watching other people before they try something themselves. And it turns out that we adults can learn in that way as well. We can definitely get a lot out of being coached directly, but watching other people being coached can be incredibly valuable as well. After the call, I reached out to the participants about what it was like for them to be on the call. So here's Kendra sharing her thoughts.

Jen Lumanlan: 03:26

I recently joined the coaching call. And it felt like although it was on Zoom session, it felt like we were in a small room face to face. Everyone talks about things that they've been going through, and you kind of sitting there feeling all that that's me. And it just feel the whole process makes you feel like the whole parenting process. Normalize a lot of things because everyone's facing similar things together.

Jen Lumanlan: 04:02

Kendra's was the last question we looked at in the session because it cut across many of the issues that other folks were facing. Kendra had recently been home to Taiwan and had noticed that others around her seem to be judging her children and her parenting, which of course is a totally relatable experience that pretty much any parent has ever had while they've been hanging out with their kids at a playground. And she's right as we were going through the session when I was talking with a parent, the other parents who are watching would be typing in the chat. I feel this too, or that drives me batty as well. And I read some of those comments out as I saw them so you'll hear them as well.

Jen Lumanlan: 04:37

Here's parent Jen who had a surprising experience on the call. I spent the first chunk of it coaching another parent Megan and we work through an exercise to help Megan understand her child's feelings and needs in the evenings. Jan was watching this And translating the concepts to her own daughter who has been struggling with the transition to being a big sibling.

Jen: 04:57

I was grateful to be part of the coaching call, which was such a warm and supportive space for me and the other participants there. It was really an engaging time, very interesting, and also, at times, very powerful, and for me emotional. I was surprised at the insights that you were able to have into my situation with just a brief description of what was happening. And I also did not expect to be emotional. I didn't feel that my emotions would be so engaged during the coaching call. I learned from the roleplay exercise to really truly consider where my child is coming from. I appreciated the opportunity to really think about how she is perceiving a particular situation, by listening to another participant imagine what her daughter was thinking about at bedtime. This is also something that my child struggles with. And again, I learned so much from the exchanges between the each individual participant and you and the insights that they gained were also relevant to me.

Jen Lumanlan: 06:24

So as you're listening to the conversation, you'll hear the emotion in Jen's voice as we see that this isn't really something we can or need to address in her daughter. It's more about things that are showing up for Jen herself. At the end of the episode, I'll share another comment from Jen, about how she was able to use what she learned on just this short call, to make a pretty big shift in the emotional climate of her family in a very short space of time.

Jen Lumanlan: 06:48

Would you have believed it's possible that a group of people who've never met each other before could start to not just make these kinds of shifts, but also begin to form a community after just 90 minutes on Zoom? This is a pretty typical group coaching call for me with folks that I don't know very well. And as I get to know you better and your relationship with your children, I can offer support based on your longer term journey rather than just what's happening right now. As you're listening to this conversation, if you realize you'd like to have this kind of experience as well, I would love to work with you. We have a couple options coming up the FREE Setting Loving (and Effective!) Limits workshop that starts Wednesday, April 24th, or in the Parenting Membership, which has open enrollment between May 5th and 15th. There'll be some more details on these and how to get involved in them at the end of the episode. For now let's take a listen to the conversation.

Jen Lumanlan: 07:38

Welcome back. And so as we get going, if you wouldn't mind sharing in the chat, how are you doing today? Just a few words. And if anything shifted for you in the course of the mindfulness practice and you'd like to share that with us as well feel free to do that. Jen is saying hello. I'm very sleepy and a little stressed. Yeah, thanks for letting us know that weren't nice feeling like I need a break. Grateful for a long weekend. I'm glad a long weekend feels like a break. Sarah, I'm tired today recovering from a phone activity. Samantha's okay in general feeling blah about many aspects of life right now and you're tired. Thanks for letting us know. Rachel, if you'd like to put something in you can feel free. And Kendra as well when you come back. Alright, Megan, this is the first time today I've slowed down and realize my mind has been running all day at work. Yeah, very often, when I talk to parents, and we work through this exercise, they realize for the very first time oh, I've been thirsty for hours, and or, Oh, I have a headache and I had no idea. So I mean, is it any wonder that we have a hard time with our kids when we go through the entire day, ignoring our needs, and not paying attention to them pretending they're not there. And then our kids want something, they do something that's age appropriate, and we snap at them because we're at the end of our rope because our needs have not been met too often. So Rachel is feeling accomplished. We didn't have school today so we got lots done and had a nice time together. Plus, I have three out of four of my kids. It seems like you're awesome. And Kendra, you just started drinking water. Thank you. Thank you for noticing your need and modeling for us the process of meeting that need well done. All right. So now if you could share in the chat, what is drawing you here today? Right? What questions do you have? What is the issue you would like to get coaching on? Okay, Rachel, ADHD and neurodivergent parenting. Thank you for that. Can you just let me know if that is my ADHD neurodivergence with the parent or with the child? Because that will impact how we talk about. Sarah is saying meltdowns and tantrums and a 10 year old. Okay? Jen, I had a baby six months ago and my five year old daughter is acting out in a quite aggressive, unexpected way at home and school. Okay. Okay, Samantha, I'm not totally sure. I was just really curious about the coaching call. Awesome. So there's always some folks who just show up with curiosity, and that's okay. And a question may arise as we're going through. So, since I'm diving into your content more, I'm more mindful of identifying needs, but I have a hard time identifying them in myself and my six year old.

Jen Lumanlan: 10:30

Okay, so we can actually talk about that if we have time, maybe towards the end. So if you're able to talk about that, Samantha, trouble identifying needs, that's, that's gonna be a theme right? Identifying needs is going to be a theme throughout our call today. So you may well find that something unsticks just through a process of hearing other people. All right, and then Rachel was in middle school and not socially aware of talks over people often doesn't consider others around them. How do I help guide and practice behaviors at home without damaging our relationship? Okay, so that's on the ADHD neuro divergence. Okay, so chat. Alright, thanks for that detail.

Jen Lumanlan: 11:01

And then Meagan, sort of a classic toddler almost for bedtime struggles we can't figure out solution works for everyone. And then Whitney, are you still typing and Kendra and Sarah as well, I think? Rachel has a late elementary kid that steals. Whitney is also curious about coaching. You want to work on staying connected during tantrums for your two year old? So these all may to, you seem like very, very different issues, like how are we possibly going to talk about all of these issues? And okay, so Kendra's adding I recently took my kids back home for the first time in Taiwan, I feel so overwhelmed with social expectations in a fast-paced society and start to question myself, whether I'm doing parenting right. For context, we never normally live in Australia and do Montessori. Okay, so doing parenting, right. All right.

Jen Lumanlan: 11:55

So while these may seem very, very different topics, there's kind of a thread of commonality between them, right. And that's what we do on the coaching calls is held to pull out the thread of commonality. So the meltdowns, tantrums and the 10 year old, acting out after baby, and the bedtime struggles are very much connected, because they're all about identifying needs, and trying to understand what are the unmet needs, and then so I think we can kind of work through those together as one lump. And then I think that will lead us through Samantha's trouble identifying needs. And we can kind of speak to that bit right after that if, if that makes sense. And then we can see how to sort of spend that with a child who has ADHD and neurodivergence. And then we can kind of wrap with this kind of overarching idea of "Am I doing this parenting thing, right? And how do I do this parenting right, according to my values, when I'm being judged by everybody else who's around me?"

Jen Lumanlan: 12:58

So if we were to spend our time on those topics in that way, is there anyone who thinks they would not get something out of this time together and would like to add something else to our agenda? Okay. And we we know how we're going to spend the next few minutes. All right, so.

Jen Lumanlan: 13:14

So let's start with the the meltdowns, tantrums, acting out, bedtime struggles. I want to start with bedtime struggles, because there's a lot of wiggle room that we can do there. And then what we're going to see is how that applies to the meltdowns, tantrums in the 10 year old and also the acting out after baby, right? Because they're going to be very, very, very related. So so who was it? Who had the bedtime struggles? Meagan? Yes. Okay. So for the rest of you, as we're talking with Meagan, what I want you to do is to realize, yes, this is Megan, this is not me. And sometimes when I'm watching people, because it's like tune out time, right? It's like, Oh, this isn't me, this is not my struggle. I'm not struggling with bed time. I'm gonna like go check Facebook or something. And so if you can instead kind of stay with us, and see, okay, yeah, what is this process we're doing? We're understanding how each person's feeling. We're understanding what each person's needs are. How am I feeling in my situation? What's my need in my situation, right? And that will help you to see how what Meagan's going through applies to your situation. And just in case, you can't make that full connection yourself. We're going to come back around to you at the end and help you with. All right, so Meagan, you are up first. So do you want to just give us a little bit more detail on what's happening in this bed time struggle situation?

Meagan: 14:28

The whole bedtime, the whole like two hour after dinner period is is more or less stressful in our house. But really, it's it's the worst right when we're walking out of the door and trying to do the final detachment. And I I guess that she's gotten a little bit older, she's able to verbalize a lot more things, you know, reasons to keep me in there. Like see seems pretty, pretty classic, I've heard this, and it's happening to me now. But I've tried to work with her. I thought maybe I was gonna get to skip it, but it didn't happen. So it she, she wants me to come back in the room over and over and over. And it'll be, you know, I tried to work with her like, at first it was because she was afraid of the fan blades. So okay, so we put, you know, like, her favorite character, you know, like little party favorite, like cut them out and I like taped him on to the fan blades. And that that did it for a while. And then she was afraid of the, the her door in her bedroom is black. So I bought rainbow stickers and put them all over her doors with her and she loved that. And then, you know, it's like something new every time. And I keep trying to identify like, what can make this better for you. And she eventually what it's coming down to is she thinks, I think she's afraid of the dark, possibly, but she has like three nice night lights on, which may be contributing to keeping her awake. So we've got the other two. And then I think she's worried about missing what Dad and I are doing, which was really just trying to have our time where we literally are just laying on the couch doing nothing because that is the time that we need. Those are our needs to not you know, to have a little disconnect and slow down. And that's hard for her because she knows we're awake. And then also she says I don't want to be alone. And I don't know how to fix that. Because she has to be alone. And she has to sleep alone, then she says will you intensely in a room? And that's true. I'm like, well, I don't have a good answer.

Jen Lumanlan: 16:46

Yeah, yeah, that probably feels pretty unfair. Right? And you said that your child is almost four. Samantha's child is six. And is she saying in the chat, we have a very similar experience. That six year old? So yes, so you're not alone? And Jen is nodding along as well. Yes. So okay, so let's figure out what's going on here. Right. So I'm, you have a lot of the pieces of this already, which is really, really cool to see. And so what I'm gonna help you to do is almost like a jigsaw puzzle, fit those pieces together into an understanding of what's happening in the situation, and then what you can do about it, right? Okay, so so we're working on this situation where the child is basically kind of community communicating to us. I don't want to go to bed, right? I don't want to be alone. And so let's start by understanding what's going on for you. Right? How are you feeling in this situation? And so go ahead and try and tell me and you may give me some words that actually aren't feelings. And I'll help you to sort of manipulate those into into actual feelings if you give me some words that aren't really feelings. So how are you feeling?

Meagan: 17:45

Well, at the end of the day, what I'm doing

Jen Lumanlan: 17:47

Yeah, when you're when you're going through this bedtime routine, it's kind of a sense of dread, right? Like there's

Meagan: 17:53

So then we always start late, because I don't want to start it because once you know you initiate it, you have to keep going. I feel I'm just stressed. I'm sort of a frazzled person by nature. And, you know, I've got like my smartwatch going off at me, like seems like you're stressed. It seems like you're stressed. So I should probably just take that off. Because like, I know that. And yeah, I get frustrated. And sometimes I just have to, like, you know, just kind of walk away and be like, Okay, I'll just be back in a minute because I just don't want to, I don't want to lose my cool. But that's not really dealing with my feelings. I'm also very exhausted at the end of the day, I work long hours and minutes. The only time I usually get to spend with her during the week at least, which stinks because it's like I feel like we're just butting heads and I'm trying not to buttheads but if I if I acquiesced to her then bedtime is like literally she's it's like 9:30 10:00 and it's like I need to go to bed now.

Jen Lumanlan: 19:02

Right? Because right now it seems like every moment that she is able to drag out bedtime is a moment stolen from your self-care practice.

Meagan: 19:12

That is that is accurate I started I'm okay until about 9 at about 9 I started becoming very not patient and feeling more and more irritated.

Jen Lumanlan: 19:27

Irritated okay. So I just want to share what I got. And I have to say you're doing an amazing job at not using what we call fake feelings, right? Sometimes we'll give a fake feeling like I feel criticized. I feel judged. And that's not really a feeling. That's a judgment masquerading as a feeling and you didn't give me any fake feelings. You give me dread, stressed, frazzled, frustrated, exhausted, impatient, irritated. So no fake feelings well done, but also kind of sucks to go through that every evening, right? It's not a fun place to be. There's really not a fun place to be. Yeah, Okay, um, would you like to? I would like to kind of refer to your daughter, could we know her name? Or could we know a pseudonym, let's just make

Meagan: 20:09

Her name is Ava.

Jen Lumanlan: 20:10

Ava. Okay, perfect. All right, so I'm going to do a little magic trick right now. Actually, you're going to do a magic trick. And so if it would help to close your eyes for a second to kind of, to stop becoming Meagan, right, you're coming out of Meagan's body and you are going to become Ava. So just kind of picture Ava in your mind. Picture what it's like to be either to be small to have somebody else telling you what to do all the time. And open your eyes and for the next few minutes as we talk, you're talking to me as Ava. Right. So I'm talking to you as Ava. So Ava, it's the end of the day, right, you've had a long day at school and then you come home and had dinner and maybe dinner was kind of hard as well, because maybe your mom wanted you to eat things that you didn't necessarily want to eat, and then it gets to bedtime, how are you feeling as you go into bedtime routine?

Meagan: 21:05

I just want I want to play longer. I didn't get to watch enough TV or play with my toys enough. And it's I'm not tired.

Jen Lumanlan: 21:15

Not tired. Okay. Okay, so you're feeling like alert? Lively?

Meagan: 21:20

Yes.

Jen Lumanlan: 21:21

Yeah.

Meagan: 21:23

So much energy. Actually.

Jen Lumanlan: 21:28

And what I'm hearing is you have your your you want to connect with your mom, right? You you've been apart from her all day. Yeah. And you want to spend time with your mom. So maybe you're feeling a little bit disconnected. And you're looking for that reconnection? Yeah.

Meagan: 21:45

Yeah. Okay.

Jen Lumanlan: 21:48

What else? Is there anything else coming up for you? Do you start to feel frustrated when she's getting you shoving you alone? Like, it's time to brush teeth? It's time to get into bed. Time to stay in bed?

Meagan: 21:58

Yes, because I know. You know, with that I know what it's all in order. And eventually, I'm going to be in bed going to bed and I'm not tired.

Jen Lumanlan: 22:09

Yeah

Meagan: 22:10

And I'm gonna say it about 50 times that I'm not tired. Yeah. So why I can't stay up.

Jen Lumanlan: 22:15

Yeah, so I mean, that sounds really frustrating. I think I would find that frustrating. Do you find that frustrating? Yeah. Yeah. Does it ever make you feel angry?

Meagan: 22:26

I'm gonna say yes. I judge based on the screaming that she does. Okay, when we tell her to stop coming out of the room.

Jen Lumanlan: 22:33

Yeah. Okay. All right. So it sounds like evenings are not super fun for you either. Right now, it would be nice if they were a bit more fun. Yeah. Okay. All right. So let's check that off. We're no longer over. We're coming back into Meagan's body again. Yeah. And okay. So now we want to try to understand what needs you, Meagan are trying to meet in the evening. Right? So if you're not used to working with needs, what you may end up telling me some strategies, right? Like, I want to sit on the couch and watch TV. sitting on the couch. And watching TV is a strategy that helps you to meet needs for things like host relaxation, maybe connection with your partner. Right. So I'm guessing that those are three things that you're trying to do in the evenings. Yeah. What else is coming up for you in terms of needs do you think?

Meagan: 23:31

I mean, my, you know, my body is tired and, and I never, I feel like I never make time to shower at night. And then I feel like it's too late to do it. And then I feel more irritated by that. So I would like to feel clean.

Jen Lumanlan: 23:46

Okay, so let me dig deeper on that right. Is it the cleanliness that feels good to you? Is it the five minutes without anybody else touching you? And, you know, being around you? What is it that feels good about that shower?

Meagan: 23:57

Oh, the silence is a lot of it. I do want to time to just be in a house by myself. Yeah, we're even in a room by myself with nobody knocking on the door, opening the door. And if I you know, I just I guess if I kind of don't kind of don't like taking a shower and washing my hair. I don't like to get wet because I'm cold and then I'm cold when I get out. I'll feel better when I'm clean. So I'm like, already not excited about it. But also I haven't experienced about that. So stress myself out about that. Yeah,

Jen Lumanlan: 24:37

Okay, so that's really helping actually. Right. So so initially, it seemed like a shower self-care. Great. Go take a shower, right. And now we find actually, you don't find the shower, that relaxing. What you're looking for is a bit of silence and a bit of autonomy and freedom to make a choice like I get to choose to spend this time by myself.

Meagan: 24:54

You know, my husband takes a shower whenever he wants. He just walks away and showers and it's amazing. Like well Oh, that's awesome. I haven't showered.

Jen Lumanlan: 25:02

So so so what that could lead us to is maybe showering is not the thing for you. Right? Maybe there's another way you could get a little bit of quiet and a little bit of autonomy and freedom to make decisions that really matter to you. That's what we want to find out. Right? So we talked about connection with your partner. I'm guessing in the evenings you also have a need to reconnect with Ava.

Meagan: 25:25

Yes. And when we try to do that, you know, when I get home from work, it's, it's just like, Go go, go. It's like dinner's happening. I'm usually running behind. And then from the second I walked in the door, it's just like, nonstop couple evenings, so it makes it hard.

Jen Lumanlan: 25:41

Okay. All right. Okay, so let's do our magic trick again, because we want to understand what our Ava's needs as well. So if you need to close your eyes for a second, and I take that breath and set Meagan aside for a second, come back into Ava, what is it like to be Ava, to be a small child? And so Ava, I'm wondering if you can identify what your needs are in the evenings. It sounds like connecting with your mom is really important.

Meagan: 26:06

It is really important. And then also, yeah, lots of play. I want to do a lot more play than I think I get to do.

Jen Lumanlan: 26:15

Okay. All right. What else?

Meagan: 26:19

Probably watching TV while dinner is being eaten, because we have a nice rule that we don't do that.

Jen Lumanlan: 26:28

So is that about the joy of watching TV? Or is that about like, I want to make decisions that feel important to me?

Meagan: 26:35

That from Ava's standpoint or Meagan's standpoint?

Jen Lumanlan: 26:40

From Ava's standpoint.

Meagan: 26:41

For me the standpoint we just love My Little Pony so much. We don't want to stop watching it for dinner. Because we're not hungry even though we were we are hungry. But we're gonna say we're not hungry. If it means we get to watch more My Little Pony.

Jen Lumanlan: 26:56

Right? Okay. Okay. And is there also a piece where you're you're wanting to make decisions about things that feel important to you as well?

Meagan: 27:05

Me, Meagan?

Jen Lumanlan: 27:07

No, you, Ava. Okay. Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah. I do have like to make decisions. Okay. So autonomy, then. Yes. Choice? Yep.

Jen Lumanlan: 27:18

Okay. Is there anything else that's coming up for you that's really important to you in the evenings?

Meagan: 27:24

Just not wanting to go to sleep. Just kind of being so awake. Not feeling tired. Yeah, well, yes. I'm gonna be tired. Right.

Jen Lumanlan: 27:33

It's time. We may come back to that. Yeah. Okay.

Jen Lumanlan: 27:39

All right. Cool. So let's check that off. Again. Right, you're back to being Meagan. So I'm so just curious, right? Whether anything about your perception of a situation has changed over the last few minutes that we've been talking about it in this way.

Meagan: 27:52

I feel like the TV dinner thing is maybe a little controlling on my end. But I also want her to be mindful when she eats. And so I have a hard time balancing that, because personally, it's a problem for me, and I guess I don't want to pass that on to her where she just mindlessly eats. So I guess maybe I'm a little bit, that's probably where the upset feelings in the evening start.

Jen Lumanlan: 28:21

Ah, okay. Is,

Meagan: 28:23

Is that, you know, because when when dad's home before I am, he turned the TV on so you can make dinner relatively uninterrupted. And then I get home. And then then when dinner is ready, we don't finish an episode to eat dinner because it might be 20 minutes. That sounds reasonable to me. I'm not doing that. So then you say you can finish it after dinner. That's the concession but we tried. You know, it's been a while I'm not hungry. I'm done with dinner. I had one bite and it's like, okay, but Dad and I are still eating dinner. So yeah, we'll turn it back on after dinner. Yeah, but it's always turns into that's that's kind of more than mooching probably happens.

Jen Lumanlan: 29:08

Yep. Yep. Okay, great. Thanks for letting us know that. So I'm just seeing some of the comments that are coming through in the chat. Right. Samantha saying I'm resentful to have the freedom with which my husband does things. I totally relate to your situation. It feels like I'm on a fast conveyor belt every day. And Jen adding, this is such an enlightening exercise to look at this situation from a feeling's perspective. Yes, because our children are people with feelings and needs. And we are people with feelings and needs. And when we can understand both of those, we start to find strategies that work for both of us, right? And so, Meagan, I'm wondering if anything is coming to you in terms of how you might address this situation now that that has kind of you know, floated to the top of your mind just because of this way we've been looking at it or if anyone else is you know, who's watching this is thinking: Meagan try this. I think this, this approach would meet both of their needs. Feel free to put that in the chat. And we'll we'll propose it to Meagan. So Meagan, do you see any strategies now that you hadn't considered before, or that you could adjust, maybe you've tried that you could now try it again?

Meagan: 30:10

I've thought about letting her like having like, you know, we'll have food on the table until eight.

Jen Lumanlan: 30:17

Okay,

Meagan: 30:18

You know, and after that, I'm like, picking up the food, the kitchens closed kind of thing.

Jen Lumanlan: 30:22

Yeah.

Meagan: 30:24

I also, yeah, I guess this is me being controlled. I really enjoy sitting as a family, the three of us it's like, important to me. Whether or not she eats, I don't care if she eats or not, honestly, she's fine. You know, she ate at one point in the day already. She's gonna be okay. She'll eat if she's hungry. But I would like her presence there. But I guess, demanding that, you know, becomes a power differential and a power struggle.

Jen Lumanlan: 30:46

Yeah, yeah. And so now what we're trying to understand is what really is the need here, right? Your need is her connection with her. And you're using this strategy of eating dinner together to meet your need for connection. And what she's saying is: I want to have autonomy, I want to have choice, I want to decide what and when I eat. Yeah. And so that's where this disconnection is happening. And so right, I have no horse in this race as to whether your child watches TV over dinner or not, right, that's your decision. This is about your values, what's important to you. So where we want to go with this is how can I meet my need for connection, which is important and legitimate, right? Your need for connection with your partner on with your daughter and also she gets to maybe meet her need for autonomy, when maybe they don't have the saying I want to watch My Little Pony is the best way she has to exert that autonomy. I'm thinking about some something that my daughter does. She likes to sit on the heater next to our table, right that we have, we have forced air that comes out of the floor and if he sits on it with a big fluffy sweater, it all goes up the sweater and from the inside while she's eating. And so you know, I could get in my sort of controlling mode and say you got to be at the table. You got to be eating because because this this connection thing is important to me. But if I can see she's just down there, I can still see her, I can still talk to her. She's participating in dinner, right? She gets to meet her need for warmth and comfort, and I get to might meet my need for connection.

Jen Lumanlan: 30:51

So what we're looking for is these strategies that meet multiple people's needs. And so what we can start to look at is, is dinner time, the really the best way to do that, right? If we're collapsing on the couch at the end of the day to connect with a partner? would it actually be better? Like would it meet your need more effectively, if you connected with your partner over dinner, just the two of you, and you connect with your daughter separately? Right? Like maybe a refund bath time or something like super, super bubble bath, or whatever it is that she really enjoys doing? Maybe potentially you could even sit down And watch an episode of My Little Pony with her.

Jen Lumanlan: 32:20

Oh, no, we do that. Yeah, that's the sat in my lap during the episode. And she wants me to sometimes she's like, if I'm not looking at the screen, she's like, keep watch look, like okay.

Jen Lumanlan: 33:11

Pay attention.

Meagan: 33:12

She notices it's important to watch. Yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 33:19

So So what do you think about you having dinner with your partner?

Meagan: 33:24

I think that's, that's the main kind of just let her do her thing.

Jen Lumanlan: 33:29

Potentially making dinner is available to her if she wants to eat it, and she can come and eat. I think the decision of whether My Little Pony is available in that time, something you can play with. Okay, you could make it available and see how it goes. And dinner's available til eight, and maybe when the episode is over, she realized I was just hungry. She eats from 745 to eight, And you're done. Right?

Meagan: 33:48

Okay.

Jen Lumanlan: 33:49

Or maybe it doesn't work like that. And you realize that actually, she's not eating at all until you know, after the time that you reasonably want to clean up. And so maybe having My Little Pony available in that time is not going to work for you. And so either way, I don't care. It's whatever works for you and for her. But your what you're moving towards is can you be connected with her at some point in the evening? And can she also have enough autonomy that she realized that she's not pushing back against you all the time? So that now she's like, okay, yeah, dinner is not a thing I have to exert control over. Okay, I'm hungry, I'm gonna eat. Yes, then. So what you will probably find is if you can bake in that connection with your partner earlier in the evening, you're going to feel a little more spaciousness, a little more flexibility at bedtime. Yeah. And then what your daughter is doing, she's basically trying to drag out bedtime as long as possible so that she can put it off because she wants to be connected to you. Right? So we're looking for ways that that she can feel connected to you and that you can also meet that need for connection with your husband maybe earlier in the day, so that you're not trying to get away from her so that you can be with him. Maybe she could play in her room quietly. While you were out.

Meagan: 35:07

I thought it was being so clever. I gave her a flashlight. And because she likes to sleep with one of her favorite books underneath her bed, I mean, underneath her pillow, and I'm like, Look, here's a flashlight. You can even read. I don't. I'm told her. I don't care if you don't sleep. Really, you have to stay in your room. You can stay up if you're quiet. You can read your books you can play. But she's like the alone thing. Yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 35:28

So so you can play with that as well. Right? So is there a way that you could get self care time while being in her room? Could you listen to a podcast? Yeah. Could you do something else that you find restful? Could you read a book while you're in her rooms? You're physically present with her. And also, she's kind of doing her own thing. Right? She doesn't have to be alone. If she's looking for a connection for comfort for emotional safety and having you there provides that, it may not be that you have to be like engaged with her. You could meet your need as well.

Meagan: 35:59

That's a good idea. Yeah. Okay.

Jen Lumanlan: 36:03

So things to try. Yes, yeah. Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Thanks for being here with us, Meagan. Okay, so let's connect this to some of the other struggles that people are having. So Jen was asking about acting out after baby, right. And so. So Jen, I'm wondering, can you identify some of your needs, and some of your daughter's needs now that we've worked through that?

Jen: 36:30

Yes, that was actually quite helpful. And we have a very similar experience. A lot of our conflict comes around in the evenings. I stay at home with my baby all day. My baby does not like to be put down so I'm not able to get much accomplished during the day. So when my husband and my daughter come home, I feel this strong need to give him the baby. He makes dinner, he's with the children, and I'm trying to run around and clean cloth diapers or through bills or things like that. But this is also the time that my that my family has to connect with one another. And it feels like something is always sacrificed. So either, I'm not able to meet my need of getting some basic things done even just taking time to wash my face, let alone have a shower or getting things done around the house. Those sorts of things get sacrificed if I make space and time to connect with my husband and my daughter. Or if I'm turning my attention to those sorts of tasks that my daughter is not having her needs met. And she's used to being the center of our world. And now she has a six month brother that she literally adores, but she also knows that she's very smart. And she knows that her father and I care a lot about her emotional experience so if she's upset, she knows we're going to pay attention to her and talk to her. And she certainly knows if she hits her brother or squeezes his arm into him, that we're going to immediately drop everything and address what's going on. So

Jen Lumanlan: 38:21

So that's super important, right? That piece by itself is super, super important that we see quote unquote, aggressive behavior. And what's there is connection, right? We might even interpret that aggressive behavior as a need for attention. And we have such a negative connotation on that idea of a tension in our culture. And so can we reframe that into a need for connection? Right? She used to be the apple of your eye. She used to get you whenever she wanted, and she never had to wait but now, is a man and you're, you know, you're paying attention to the baby. And now she has to wait all the time and be nice to the baby. And everybody's saying: Don't you love being a big sister? And she's like: Yeah, sometimes, but sometimes not really. But I know but nobody wants to hear that. So I can't actually say it to anyone. Yeah, and so so she's making bids for connection and so that I had a feeling that we were going there with that right which is which is the connection, I wanted to make sure that your drawing is that same idea she has these these feelings, you have feelings about the situation, you have needs for ease, right for for self-care, for rest, and she has needs for connection, really big needs for connection. And so I want to kind of try to explore a little bit this idea of you know, I can't get anything done during the day because the baby doesn't like to be put down. And you're taking me right back to a time when Carys was I want to I want to say like four months old and I would be kind of sitting playing with her on the floor in the living room and I would get up and go make dinner and she would start crying and I remember telling somebody, she won't let me make dinner. Well then I realized: Ha? Is that really I mean, it took me months to realize. This was not an immediate realisation took me months to realize is that really true? Or is it that I feel so uncomfortable with that crying that I can't let it happen at all? And I'm interpreting that as she won't let me make dinner. And so so I think, you know, some some ideas to explore, right? Some people do practice babywearing for for that reason, right, carry them baby all the time and doing lots of things while wearing the baby. Um, one thing I could have done would be put the baby in sight of the kitchen. I didn't know enough at the time to realize when I'm not within sight, she thinks I've gone forever. She thinks I don't exist anymore. So we're starting to look for these practices that meet your needs, and meet baby's needs. Right. And maybe baby feels a slight bit of discomfort if you're not in physical contact all the time. And maybe baby can learn to tolerate that. Right. But this is not going to do massive emotional damage to baby to be within sight of you. What would it be like to consider that as a potential strategy?

Jen: 41:10

I mean, I do. It's, it's still a challenge. Baby wants to be held and touched. It's not enough to be next to me or in the crib, and I'm just three feet away folding laundry. He just loves that feeling of being held. And I've tried multiple things, including babywearing and I am very uncomfortable with him crying for a prolonged period of time. Just I recognize that for me, that stresses me out. So it's just yeah, it's hard. I'm very open to feedback.

Jen Lumanlan: 41:51

Yeah, it is hard. And I am wondering the extent to which you were independent as a child.

Jen: 42:05

I think my home's, my parents were divorced when I was six months old, separated before I was born. And I believe that the homes were very different. My mother was in graduate school and working full time so I don't know how much time she was able to give me and my dad, I don't know. I don't know.

Jen Lumanlan: 42:29

Yeah.

Jen: 42:30

Yeah. So as a baby, I don't know. But I was quite, I was left to my own devices a lot as I grew.

Jen Lumanlan: 42:41

Yeah. And so now we start to see where the struggle is coming from, right. This is not just about do I babywear or not, right? This is about a deep hurt that you're carrying with you. It makes it really hard to consider that that baby is there and is crying. And there's something you could do about it. And maybe you're choosing not to do, right. Yeah,

Jen: 43:02

I think I think you're right, that that taps into something that's quite deep feeling for me.

Jen Lumanlan: 43:12

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like a hurt, right? Like a wound that's there that's still really raw. And maybe it seemed as though it was kind of okay, then maybe, maybe your older child actually was fairly independent, and it wasn't such an issue. And now you've got this baby who really wants to be held all the time. And it's like somebody rip that band aid right off. And there's this raw, unhealed wound still there about what it means to be abandoned, to be left to your own devices. And so yeah, so that that's why this is hard. Not not because there's some sort of mythical strategy that you have to use that is gonna magically fit all these pieces together, right? You're gonna have enough time for baby and for your daughter and to connect with your partner and get all housework done. It's about how it hurts.

Jen: 44:01

Yeah, that's, that's, I feel that I guess I hadn't quite made that connection. But I feel the same way with all of my issues with my daughter as well. I'm always I don't want her to feel alone. I don't want her to feel like she's less than now that there's a baby here. I think when my parents remarried and had their own children, many younger brothers and sisters who I love, I think it was still quite difficult for me to be the only child of my two parents and to be at minimum seven years older. And not really maybe part of the family. And so maybe that's yeah, maybe that's, I guess I hadn't thought of that where some of my discomfort is coming from or a lot of it. Yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 44:47

Yeah. And always feeling like you weren't really part of the family. Right. And now looking at this older child who's like, does she feel like she's not really part of this family now little brother's here? Is she is she hurting in the same way that I have hurt?

Jen: 45:01

Yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 45:02

And that's, that's really hard. It's really hard to be with. And also, she's a different person, your son is a different person. You are not your parents'. We can't protect our children from all of the struggles that they will face in life. And so much of parenting is about seeing what is our thing that we're struggling with, and trying to work to heal those hurts that we have experienced, while letting them have their own experiences, right? She may have an amazing relationship with her little brother for her her entire life, they may grow up, and they may never speak to each other again, right, we can't know that. We can't know what their relationship is going to be like. All we can do, do the best that we can to show up in for them in a way that's aligned with our values. So obviously, there's so much more that we could do like I am just noticing in myself the like the wish to be able to hand you something on a platter that says this is how you fix this. And it doesn't exist. Right. It's not there. I think it's really in like developing that that self-understanding and that self-compassion and noticing, Oh, yeah, baby's crying, and oh, gosh, that hurts. When that hurts, because of what I've experienced, maybe babies feeling a little bit of discomfort. But that's babies little discomfort is very different from the hurts I had felt and working to start to separate those two things. Maybe that's a good place to start. Yeah.

Jen: 46:37

I think that's a wonderful place to start. And it's thank you for seeing that it's not something that I had really considered before as part of some of the struggles that I'm have been. So it gives me something to reflect on and go from there.

Jen Lumanlan: 46:52

You're so welcome. Thanks for trusting us with that, Jen.

Jen: 46:55

I appreciate it.

Jen Lumanlan: 46:58

All right. So Rachel, did you want to raise anything that we haven't already talked about as this relates to a child who's neurodivergent?

Rachel: 47:06

I think one huge, like, bucket of questions I have is that with ADHD, my kids, I feel like sometimes need more reminders for like more basic tasks. Even though like we'll have the same routine, and the routine will be like posted on the wall with pictures. We obviously like have all these little life hacks, but I still have to, like verbally remind and that annoys them, especially as they get older. And so I guess my question is, and this probably like, is all parents like, as our children get older, how can we keep them on a routine or on tasks that they have to do without being super annoying? Or maybe that's not something that be can be prevented? I don't know.

Jen Lumanlan: 47:57

Yeah, yeah. I think that's that question kind of butts up against this idea of autonomy, right? There's, like a child stay on a self chosen task. Right? There's actually this routine is mostly like stuff I want you to do. And stuff that school is telling you to do and stuff that I know you don't really care about. And it's not very interesting to you. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel: 48:24

Like, I will explain to them, like, here's why we have to brush our teeth. Won't it feel good after you've done it? If I don't remind you, you will feel very grown up? Like I will try to think of all the pluses of just getting it done. Every day.

Jen Lumanlan: 48:43

Okay, so what is the information we're missing here?

Rachel: 48:46

How do they feel about brushing their teeth? Yes.

Jen Lumanlan: 48:50

What need are they trying to meet by not brushing their teeth? Right? Is it boring? They're looking for something as joyful and fun? Is it uncomfortable? Is the toothbrush a difficult shape? Or do they not like the sudsing in the mouth, and they're not like the mint-flavored toothpaste? Is it that they don't like being told, right? They want to have a sense of autonomy. And they don't like being reminded they don't like being told. When we understand what that need is, we can start to find ways to meet that need. Right? If it's being reminded by you, that's really irritating. I know a lot of families use work so for that.

Rachel: 49:27

Yeah, we've committed but they will turn her off they that will get unplugged. I don't like telling them what to do either unfortunately.

Jen Lumanlan: 49:40

Autonomy is really important there. So they want to be able to make decisions about this that feel really meaningful to them. Right. So now we want to look at what what are all the potential ways that they can make decisions about things related to tooth brushing, right? There's this window of time between dinner and bedtime, that ideally we want the tooth to get teeth to get brushed. Do you get to choose what time. You get to choose where it happens. You get to choose the toothpaste, right the toothbrush, the everything you can imagine. You get to choose whether I'm with you or not, whether you're with a sibling or not. If a child is looking for a connection, then they may resist brushing teeth, if we're telling them go and brush your teeth by yourself, because you're old enough to do it by yourself, now, they want to be with us. And they don't think that we'll hear them if we if they say that so they resist the tooth brushing. And if we'd be willing to sit with them in the bathroom, read them a story while they're brushing, brush our own teeth while they're brushing. Right? These are all strategies to meet a need for connection and also autonomy. Now?

Rachel: 50:38

Yeah, I like that I am thinking like, they do think it's boring like you brought up boring that's definitely that they think it's like maybe I put on Alexa in there but they can like listen to their favorite dance music or something.

Jen Lumanlan: 50:52

Perfect. [unintelligible] so that nobody is actually getting a toothbrush shoved down their throat, contact with the floor, right meet your need for safety. And and maybe they have other ways that they can be like, okay, we can be safe. Yeah. So they get to choose, they get to make it fun. Yeah. And then you might not be

Rachel: 51:13

But yeah, like everything they get. Yeah, not just toothbrushing. You know, there's lots of things you have to do that we don't want to do, but maybe making it more fun.

Jen Lumanlan: 51:23

Yes, yeah. And the key to the fun part is to try to not see it as the spoonful of sugar that makes the medicine go down because kids see right through that. Yeah, the key is, can we just enjoy this together? Who? What, how can we make this more enjoyable for all of us, right, to approach it from that perspective, rather than I'm gonna exert my control over you, you're gonna get the toothbrush, and you're gonna like it because I'm going to put dance music on, right? But they get to choose, so they actually have autonomy, they actually have choice, and then they actually enjoy it.

Jen Lumanlan: 51:54

Yeah, yeah. Oh, gosh, that's a quite a personal question for me. Actually, for those of you who are not longtime podcast listeners, you may not know I self-diagnosed as autistic a couple of years ago. I had no idea, right? By well, I mean, obviously, you can imagine why I didn't go to middle school because we didn't have it in England, I just was high school from 11 to 16. So you can imagine what high school was like with very little capacity to understand what other people thinking and feeling. And so I think there's, there's this, you know, the thing that we're working with is that we don't want to ask your child to mask to cover up who he really is, for the sake of protecting other people's feelings, right. And so particularly if there is neurodivergence involved the sort of a long history of neuro neuro divergent folks being told mask slash told to cover up who you really are to be acceptable to the wider world, you do not want to have that happen. And also, oh my gosh, I wish I would have known that other people think differently than that when you arrive at a new school, and the teacher says, you know, let's all critique each other's plays and drama class, the the dumb thing to do is not to raise your hand as the new girl and critique the other, you know, the other kids play. Even though the teacher is telling you to do that, that's not what you're supposed to do. Right? I didn't know that. And if I had known that, let's just say high school would have started out very, very differently for me. So ao I think the key is to to suggest gently that maybe there are some ways that he's interacting with other people that might feel difficult, and that if he would like to learn about those, and would like to learn to, to some skills that might help him to interact with those people, when he chooses to use them, right, that there may be times when he's like, in this environment, I don't care I myself, I talk to myself, you all can do whatever you're doing, and I really do not care. And maybe there are other environments where I'm like, okay, yeah, now I see that the talking to myself is irritating people and I care about that here. And so I'm going to tamp it down a little bit, right and but I know I know the difference between those environments. And so I, what I wish I had had was somebody who had that awareness to say, I can help you with this, if you would like to be helped And when you are ready to be helped, and not until then.

Rachel: 51:54

Yeah, okay. And like in the same bucket of annoying my kids. One of my older kids has like some, just a little bit like some social things that are delayed, and because of that, but Middle School is obviously brutal already. And the kids let him know, like, what he's doing. And so I'm sort of torn between, like, do I gently, like, help him with those issues at home, but then I feel like it's almost damaging to our relationship. But I'm like, Hey, you're talking out loud to yourself again. And that, like, can affect those around you. But, you know, I want to like be really mindful of how much I'm talking to them about that in connecting?

Rachel: 55:13

Okay. Yeah, okay.

Jen Lumanlan: 55:16

Yeah, so I don't know if every right, we all have our own experiences, right. Mine I don't think is particularly unique or and it's, I think it's somewhat typical. What we're not doing is sort of forcing the skills training on the person and saying, This is what you need to do, because it's irritating to other people when you do that thing. But instead, we're just helping them understand how they are perceived by other people and offering another set of skills if and when they are ready to learn them. And not until then. Right? Because, because otherwise you're conveying you're not acceptable to me. You're not lovable to me until you stop doing this thing I find irritating. And that's not where we want to be going. We want to be communicating loud and clear. You are lovable as you are. And if and when you're ready for something else, let me know.

Rachel: 56:00

Okay, love that. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Jen Lumanlan: 56:04

Awesome. Thank you, Rachel. So I want to sort of bring this up to a macro level now with Kendra as we start to wrap up here. And then I just want to seed something with you. Before we do that, I'd love it if when we when we're kind of wrapping up with Kendra, if each of you will be willing to share one thing you're going to take away from our session today and apply in your life or just not even it doesn't have to be anything practical. It just be oh, this this really resonated, this was really meaningful to me. So if you want to kind of have that idea percolating within Kendra, let's, let's have a chat about doing parenting. Right?

Kendra: 56:37

Well, I feel like I guess it's like, both kids have my we raised more Montessori way and then we have like, a baby classes. They were baby like, we go to Montessori School, and they have baby cars, and they kind of teach you like things that's totally different to how I was raised. Like, they teach you to see the child's perspective and understand them knowing that you know, what they are having the tantrum for may not be the actual underlying thing, like they just, it's like a certain thing you need to see deeper. But I guess when this time when I go back to Taiwan, I feel like maybe it's just society's expectation just so different. And I feel like I feel it's, it's probably my problem, it's not their problem, because they are still the same. They are not different. They just don't have the social like that to society just have two different social expectation. I'm kind of swaying around while I'm in different environment. Like when I feel like everyone's judging me, I have a different criteria for them. So I think I think that's, that's where I'm coming from. And I see that's my issue that I'm influenced by others so easily. I don't know. How do I say in a different environment when everything is against what I believe? How do I stay the same and still teaching because I feel I went back this time when I go back to Taiwan, I feel so irritated when I know everyone's social expectation is different and their behavior will be seen as, you know, say ungrateful or, you know, like, no mana in that society, whereas it's not in Australia. So I guess that's my question. Like, I feel I maybe from my childhood, I was judged that way. And so now I can't I feel judged by others all the time. And I can't just stay with my belief kind of thing. Yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 59:00

Yeah. Anyone else ever feel judged in your parenting? Yeah, yes. Okay, everybody else is nodding. Yeah, so Kendra, I think what's happening is it's sort of like this external version of something that everybody else on this call is feeling internally. Right? You're you're seeing it externally, because you're doing it in these two different cultures. And everybody else is experiencing internally because we were raised one way where like, respect means you respect me because I'm bigger and older than you are. And you're gonna do it because I told you to, and we want to approach respect in a very different way. And so there's this huge struggle, right when our children do something that is difficult for us and, and we're like, yes, I want you to have a full emotional expression in life, but I would have been punished for saying that. So there's this massive like, just tearing apart of us that happens inside because we have these two different experiences. It's just that it's happening on the outside for you because you're doing it in two different cultures. And so ao yeah, that that idea of I'm, I'm being judged either by myself, right. And so many of the parents I work with, they are the harshest critics of their own parenting. They're the harshest judges of themselves. Everybody's learning to that to quite sort of very gently. And, and so we judge ourselves. And then of course, there's that judgment coming from other people. And I think the best tool that I know of to navigate that is knowing what your values are, is knowing what's really important to you. Because otherwise, you find yourself just getting swayed all the time, right is if we have a need for competence in parenting, and that competence is measured by does my kid say thank you. It is my mother-in-law, thinking that my kid is a disaster or not. We were constantly kind of at the mercy of whatever everybody else thinks of us. And then we just get knocked over every time somebody has this opinion, that's different from ours. Whereas if we know like, deep within ourselves, what our values are, and what's really important to us, then it's almost like we can create a little bit of distance between this thing this other person is saying, and our reaction to it. So that it's not, you know, my my parent, my mother-in-law, whoever says you're, you're a terrible parent, right, that might even come out of their mouth. And then we're like, oh, my gosh, am I a terrible parent? Or, you know, we have this big reaction to it. We can imagine, yeah, okay, I hear you saying that. And I think that that's mostly about you. Right, that's mostly about how you're feeling and how you're showing up in the world. And I can also see that you really care about your grandchildren, my children, right? This is coming from a place of, of wanting the best for this child. And also, I am this child's parent, and this is what I believe, and I can take, I can hear what you're saying I can I can take that on to the extent that I find that valuable. And also I can, no, these are my values. This is what I believe to be true. This is what I want my relationship with my child to be like. And that means that when my child cries, I do this with my child doesn't say thank you, I do that. Right. Maybe I say thank you for them, or whatever is the right thing that I decide that I want to do. How does that land with you?

Kendra: 01:02:25

Yeah, I think that's probably I feel like I just, I need to learn to not be care about other views, much like it or not. I Oh, though, I know and I feel like really pressured at that moment that I know, other people are thinking about that. And that does affect me. I just have I don't know how somehow learned that, you know, not being feeling pressured when am I projecting onto my kids.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:02:58

Yeah, exactly. Right. There's that moment where it seems like all eyes are on you. And then in Taming Your Triggers language, right, your window of tolerance gets narrower, and all of a sudden behavior you would have been able to cope with if you were fully rested, and in full capacity now pushes you outside of that window of tolerance and you explode. Right? So it's about not forcing yourself, you can't force yourself into like not listening to other people not taking on their judgement. It's almost like a practice, right of hearing other people who disagree with us. One practice I heard is to listen to a TV channel that whose politics you violently disagree with and try and listen to it without judging? Yeah. So you don't even need your family around to do that, right? Or you could watch whatever political TV show it is and just try and sit with it and hear what they're saying and not take that as a criticism of yourself and who you are. Right. And maybe as a way of kind of edging into it. And then when you're with somebody who you're related to is it's again, that practice of Yeah, I hear what you're saying. And I'm going to separate a little bit from the I this is what I believe. Thank you for your opinion. This is what I believe. This is how I want you to. Yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to ask or say about any aspect of that?

Kendra: 01:04:21

Yeah, I think that's pretty much yeah. What I found Well, I guess what I found most difficult recently. Yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:04:29

Yeah. Thanks for sharing with us. Appreciate it.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:04:32

So as we wrap up, here we are at time when anyone like to say anything that was particularly meaningful to you that you are going to take out into the world whether that was a particular tip or just something you heard that like, yes, this really resonates. If you'd like to come off, mute and share it feel free if you'd like if you'd prefer to type it in the chat and I can read it for you. Feel free to do that. So just take yourself off mute if you'd like to share.

Meagan: 01:04:53

Today I realized that my dinner time is not does not define my values okay, to I don't have to give up, but I believe in to kind of compromise with my three year old.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:05:06

Yeah. Yeah. That maybe you can find a way that meets your needs and meets her needs as well.

Meagan: 01:05:11

Yeah. Well probably been a little rigid on that and not realized it.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:05:17

Yeah, yeah, that rigidity gets us into a really difficult spot. Right. When we think there's only one way to do something, there's only one strategy that's going to meet my need. Never true. Never, ever, ever true.

Meagan: 01:05:27

Yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:05:28

When we identify the need, we find multiple strategies. Yeah. Cool. Thank you, Meagan. Whitney, saying I had some light bulbs about tantrums. And I liked your comment about fake feelings. Yeah, fake feelings are really when once you see them, you see them everywhere. If you go to YourParentingMojo.com/feelings. We have a brand new feelings list up and very soon, there is also going to be a kid's version with pictures that you can post on the fridge and the kids can point to it. And so when your when your work started to work with feelings, I'd really encourage you to use feelings that are on the Feelings List because then you know, you're not using a fake feeling. Anyone else like to share either in the chat or live something that you will take away from our call today?

Jen: 01:06:08

Yes, I will take away I think a lot of value from that exercise of sort of role playing and pretending to be your child and really forcing yourself to be in their shoes and to see things from their perspective. And then another thing that also be taken away is just remembering that my struggles are not my child struggles, and also the way that people may view my approach to parenting, it's more about them. And the important thing is just to be steadfast in my family's values, and to stay connected to my child and my children and what they need.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:06:52

Yeah, lovely. And yeah, when you when you can do that, everything else gets easier, right? When you know what your values are, and what's really important to you and you can see multiple strategies to meet needs, everything else gets so much easier. Thank you, Jen. Appreciate it. Anyway, anyone else like to say anything before we wrap up? All right. Well, thank you so much for being here with me. Thanks for trusting us with your deepest struggles, I really appreciate it.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:07:20

So I hope you enjoyed hearing that call recording, and that you learn some approaches to help you in your relationship with your own children. I mentioned at the beginning of the episode that I followed up with the parents who participated on the call, and I want to share just a few of their responses with you. Meagan was the parent, we spent the most time coaching on her evening struggles. Here's what she said, when I asked her what has shifted as a result of the call:

Meagan: 01:07:43

I'm trying to remind myself to try to look at things from her side, and realize that she doesn't get to make a lot of choices throughout the day. And that must be very frustrating. I can remember if I think about it, how I felt when people made all my choices so that really gives me a lot more compassion when she has big feelings about needing to do things that she may not want to do. And I can tell or appreciate more, I guess when she and I come up with solutions together, or maybe it's her idea, all together, it's different, you know, they have a little glow about them.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:08:29

Now, I don't know about you, but finding some more compassion for your child, which then tends to make the struggle seem less struggling. And to start to see Meagan's child coming toward Meagan with ideas that she knows Meagan is going to try to work with, and that they're both feeling better about what had previously been very difficult interactions feels to me like a pretty decent outcome for a 90 minute investment. Whitney didn't speak during the conversation itself, because she said her main struggle around preschool drop off had been getting better recently anyway. But she used the idea she learned on the call with her son's bedtime struggles as well.

Whitney: 01:09:05

The only thing that stuck out to me was tantrums. And I just felt like his tantrums or meltdowns, or the big emotions that he would experienced during certain times. Sometimes I would feel almost like starting to detach when I wanted to stay connected to him. And this would especially happened in the evenings, you know, around bedtime when I was you know, getting tired and not having I feel like the capacity that was necessary to stay connected to him. And so immediately after the call during bedtime was one of those moments where he was experiencing you know, the desire not to go to bed and I was experiencing the desire and the need to put in the bed so I could relax and I one of the things you talked a lot about in the call when someone else was talking about bedtime struggles was autonomy. And so I kind of was just trying to think of, you know, what choice can I give him right now because right now it's just we you, you need to get in the bed. So I actually gave him the opportunity to choose where his toys were going to go to bed. Are they going to be in the hallway are they gonna be on the shelf? Do Is there anybody you want me to take downstairs and that's where they can park for the night? Because they're all cars, they're all you know, are trucks. And so that, you know, shifted the energy, his energy, and he was no longer upset about me trying to put him into bed, he started, you know, telling me and directing me who was supposed to go where, and that allowed us to, you know, focus on that for a little bit. And then he pretty much jumped right into bed after that. So I just want to say thank you for, you know, creating a space where we as parents can share those types of things, see those connections, because even though I didn't share an issue or struggle, the struggles that I'm having are very similar to those that were shared on the call, and I definitely got something out of it. And I really appreciate that. The strategies and things that you share in your podcast, I've been listening for, you know, most of the time that I've had my son, he's two now. And I really feel like it's beneficial for me. And I know it's beneficial for a lot of others. So thank you.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:11:29

When I watched Whitney's video, I felt a little bit torn, there was part of me that was really happy about the immediate success. But I was also worried it was going to fade out pretty fast because giving a child choices about where they put their trucks to bed might not actually meet their need for autonomy. In this case, it seems like it did. But it's possible that the child might still realize they don't have autonomy, in the really important decisions about bedtime, and in the rest of their life as well. You can look back to Episode 181, on Why giving choices doesn't work (And what to do instead) for more on that. So I replied and sent a note to Whitney on that topic. And she said she appreciated the reminder to think about more than just what happens at bedtime, which of course is what we saw with Meagan and Jen as well throughout the call. And Whitney's wheels were already turning on where she could go with this. Jen sent me a message saying that she had joined the call to get answers about her daughter's behavior. Before the call, she didn't see any connections between her daughter's behavior and her son or to her own experiences in childhood either.

Jen: 01:12:33

I joined the coaching call seeking help with my daughter, who has been showing some physical aggression at school and at home. And I was able to get some help there. But I was very deeply affected by your insight into my dynamic with my son, which is related to what's happening with my daughter as well. I've been struggling to accomplish anything, housework, self-care, quality time with my husband and my daughter because I've really been struggling to let my baby cry just a little. I'm not talking about crying it out. I'm talking about not being able to tolerate the sound of him crying even when I know he's safe, fed clean. I still struggled and because I couldn't put him down when he was crying, I found myself always holding him and then unable to meet any other needs mine or anyone else's. So you had an insight and asked me about what my infancy was like. And well, of course, I don't remember stands to reason that there may have been some deep feelings and unmet needs that I was really unaware of. So now as long as my baby is safe, I've been practicing and building the muscle of putting him down and taking care of myself and my daughter and my husband, and that has actually helped to calm everything in the home, including my own heart.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:14:19

I know it can be really hard to get deep insight into a situation when you're in it yourself. It happens to me too. Jen's daughter was the squeaky wheel here who was making it known that the way things were going was not working for her so it seemed like her behavior was the thing to fix. But the insight that Jen wasn't meeting anyone's needs including her own because she was having such a hard time hearing her baby cry was a really important missing piece when she saw that she could find ways to soothe herself when she put him down and he cries as long as he's safe and fed and clean, which then creates time for her to take care of her own needs and opens up the capacity to help her meet her daughter's needs. I'm so glad she was able to put what we discussed on the call into practice, and that she's already seeing such a difference in her daughter's behavior, which, again, seemed like it was a thing that needed to be addressed here.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:15:12

So I hope all this gives you some ideas for how parenting can be a little less struggling for you than it might be at the moment. And that you can really find yourself as a parent in a place where things are calmer, and honor more even keel and you can relax and actually enjoy being with your children. If you'd like my support in doing that, then I would love to work with you sometime soon. The Setting Loving (and Effective!) Limits workshop is now always open with the Flex path option for just $7 so you can do it anytime you like, at your own pace. Or you can go through the workshop and get five group coaching group coaching calls with me over 10 days, starting Wednesday, April 24th. So that's five calls that will feel a lot like this one, except you get to share the challenges you're facing and get my guidance and the support from the other parents on the call as we build our little community. The basic workshop with the content and an online community that's on a platform like Facebook, but without the ads and the doom scrolling is totally free when you do the Guided path option, where you get one email per day starting April 24th. Or you can choose to add the five group coaching calls and the Forever access to the content for just $37. And so that's the price of a cup of coffee per call. Plus you can revisit the module content whenever you like instead of having it expire at the end of the free workshop. You will learn how to set limits more effectively. But you'll also learn how to set way fewer limits than you ever thought possible. So learn more and sign up for the free workshop at YourParentingMojo.com/settinglimits.

Jen Lumanlan: 01:16:41

If the Setting Limits workshop isn't for you, then you might start thinking about the Parenting Membership which is open for enrollment between May 5th and 15th. And there we have group coaching calls like this every single month as well as a new module of content and an awesome community and all kinds of other things as well. You can find more information on that coming up soon and get on our waitlist when we will be able to send you a coupon when enrollment opens at YourParentingMojo.com/parentingmembership. I very much hope I'll get to see you on a coaching call soon.

Jessica: 01:17:16

Hi, this is just from Verlies Panama. I'm a Your Parenting Mojo fan and I hope you enjoy this show as much as I do. If you found this episode, especially enlightening or useful, you can also donate to help Jen produce more content like this and also save us from those interminable mattress ads. Then you can do that and also subscribe in the link that Jen just mentioned. And don't forget to head to YourParentingMojo.com to record your own message for the show.